From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:05:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:05:21 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Fellas: I'm new to this forum and was asked to tell you a bit about myself. Well, here goes. I'm 43 and for as long as I can remember, I have been facinated with the B-17. I could legally fly airplanes before I could legally drive cars. One of my instructors was a waist gunner on a 390th BG(H) Fort at Parnham (Framlingham), Oran Laourer. He never talked to me about the war, but he sparks my curiosity when I would overhear him talking to other vets that hung out at the airport. In 1991 I sat down for a root beer float at Lou's Drive Inn in Peoria Illinois. I am attaching a story about my first flight in a B-17. It has been published in several 8th AF newsletters, you might have seen it. The owner of Lou's Drive Inn, Louis LaHood (2Lt., Pilot of Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 322nd BS, 91st BG, May to June of 44) talked me into writing my first book. In 1998 and 1999, I went to Germany to find Lou LaHood's B-17, Lassie Come Home, s/n 42-31673, that was shot down over Deiderode, Germany, on 16.8.44 by fighters. There were six Fortresses lost from the 324th BS (Lassie was assigned to the 324th that day) of the 91st BG(H), and I have found the crash sites of three. I've found about 200 pounds of exploded ammo, CO2 containers from Mae Wests, parts of flak vests, and hundreds of other pieces. (All of this was restored to museum quality standards and will soon be on display at the Tower Museum in Bassingbourn.) Ok, ok, enough about the 91st. When I went to England on business in 1997, I had the weekend free and could have gone anywhere in Europe. But I elected to go to Bassingbourn - Lou's old base. Going there was incredible! I knew I would have to return to see other bases. When I got back to the States, I found out how difficult it was to get information on the former 8th Air Force heavy bomber bases as I was planning my next airfield visits. I soon decided to write a field guide for visiting the old stations - history of each, photos of the base then and now, the memorials, Ordinance survey maps showing locations, property owners, pubs and churches having memoribilia from the war, and where to eat and where to stay. So, I have spent four weeks in the last two years visiting the old stations and photographing what still remains. Ok, ok, yes, Airfields of the Eighth by Freeman and One Last Look sound similar, but Airfields of the Eighth was published in 1979 and is woefully outdated, and One Last Look does not tell a person what he needs to know to visit the old stations. I've been to 42 of the stations, all 8th AF heavy bases, from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ADs. Because so much of the strategic bombing campaign was governed by the ground offensive after D-Day, I have been studying the land war too. I've been to the Normany beach head, the V-1 and V-2 laund sites at Calais, the Cologne Cathedral, the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the submarine pens at Kiel, and the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Schafer Company (ball bearings) at Schweinfurt. Last year I spent a week with two Dutch Resistance fighters who gave me a personal tour of all of the battlefields and bridges associated with Operation Market Garden. Spectacular! (To walk across the bridges at Arnhem and Nijmegen was awesome!) And next April, I'm doing Battle of the Bulge sites - Hurtgen Forest, Aachen, Bastogne, Malmedy, etc. I am secretary of the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the Eighth Air Force Historical Society and publish our state chapter's newsletter - The Rally Point. I was also voted an honory life member of the national Eighth Air Force Historical Society by its board for all of the work I have done for them. And I want all of you to know I have never taken one thin dime for all of the work I have done for the men of the Eighth. I feel very strongly that I should not profit from what 26,000 men paid for with their lives. I get 20 to 30 letters a week from people researching planes, missions and men. I answer all of them. If any of you are heading across the pond and want to know other bases to visit, let me know. I have everything you would need. Now a question: Was The Fox in business during the war, and do any of you have any specific memories of your time there? I had lunch there after visiting with Brian McGuire and Molesworth. (And I would love to do the hangar dance that is done from time to time for you 303rdsters!) Well, that's it fellas. I'm very pleased to be part of your chat group. Kevin M. Pearson 2514 W. Woodland St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 800.748.7856 816.232.4461 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:36:22 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:36:22 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past A Flight Into The Past By: Kevin M. Pearson - 1992 The crisp, morning air in Midland, Texas, was abruptly broken by the thunderous, deep-throated roar of four, 1200 horsepower Wright Cyclone engines, belonging to the B-17 Flying Fortress named "Texas Raiders." Each engine coughed, sputtered and belched large quantities of blue, oil-laden exhaust as each of the nine cylinder Cyclones, one by one, roared to life with a sound reminiscent of a time long past. It all started in the summer of 1991 when I sat down for a root beer float at Lou's Drive-In in Peoria, Illinois. On that day, I was wearing a cap bearing the letters and numerals "B-17G" and a T-shirt with a picture of a B-17 Flying Fortress on it. The owner of Lou's Drive-In, Louis LaHood, came up to me and asked in a skeptical and somewhat sarcastic tone what a young guy like me knew about the B-17 Flying Fortress. Lou had been a pilot with the Eighth Army Air Force, 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) and had flown 30 combat missions over occupied Europe during World War II. We spent the rest of that day discussing such things as manual versus automatic turbo-supercharging, the magnetic flux-gate compass, stratospheric flight characteristics, and, of course, the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress versus its major rival, the Consolidated B-24 Liberator. During our conversation, I told Lou I was writing a book about this remarkable aircraft and this is what he said to me, "Before you can ever write a book about the B-17, you have to fly on one. No other plane flies quite like the 17." I took his advice to heart and contacted the Confederate Air Force (CAF) museum in Midland, Texas, and after several months, received permission for both Lou and myself to fly on their B-17, affectionately known as "The Raiders." My photographer and I arrived in Midland at 10:00 p.m. on the night of March 28, 1992. We had been on the road since 6:00 a.m. that morning but before checking into our motel, before even eating dinner, we were overpowered by the urge to go to CAF Headquarters and see the "Fort." There was a certain magnetism in the air, something drawing us to the Fortress, a force so strong that we both had but one purpose and that was to see the B-17. We walked into the main hangar at CAF Headquarters and were immediately greeted by the sounds of "Chattanooga Choo Choo," a wartime classic originally sung by Frances Langford in 1942. A party was in progress - one of many hosted by the CAF each year. There were many people in the hangar, some sitting, some standing, some dancing, their voices echoing in a muffled staccato in the vast and cavernous expanses of the hangar. I gazed about and saw a multitude of World War II aircraft. The air was thick with the smell of high-octane aviation fuel and other assorted olfactory delights common only to a place where aircraft are stored. In the background I could hear the lead vocalist singing, "There's gonna be a special someone at the station, satin and lace, I use to call funny face." To my left was an F-82, a Siamese twin version of the P-51 Mustang, to my right a German ME-109. Straight ahead was "FiFi," a Boeing B-29 Superfortress with all four engines detached from their nacelles, obviously undergoing what we in the aviation community call an annual. Where was the B-17? She wasn't in the hangar. Then, out of the corner of my eye, I spotted her and the distinctive shape of her Plexiglas nose. She was parked outside of the hangar on the "hardstand." The expansive hangar doors were only partially cracked, exposing only a frontal view of the fuselage. We began walking towards the "Fort" as the band started its rendition of Glenn Miller's "Little Brown Jug." Actually our walk simulated a gallop, and the closer we got to the "Fort," the faster our strides became. I could hear one gentleman in the background, somewhat inebriated from the nights festivities, bellowing, "And there we were at 24,000 feet, one engine feathered and one on fire, when we began pitching like this and we started going down," (he made an arching motion with his hand) his story becoming inaudible as we breezed past him. We had walked into a time warp. Certainly I must be having a dream. We walked right by security, right by the band and slipped out through the hangar doors. There she was in all of her splendor, silhouetted by the glare of the hangar lights. We just stood there, mouths wide open and stared up in amazed delight. Before us was this huge, four-engine behemoth of an airplane, the type of plane I had studied for the better part of the last fifteen years. We walked around her, peering into every window, sliding our hands over her smooth control surfaces until it seemed like we studied every rivet on that plane. We spent the next hour just hanging around that old bird. I felt a sense of awe just being in the presence of this time machine, a machine that had helped accomplish so much during those dark days of 1943 and 1945. The next day we met Lou, who was flying in from Peoria, then with the Flight Operations Coordinator of the Confederate Air Force. We received our flight instructions - we would fly the next day and could spend the rest of this day photographing the Fortress inside and out. We grabbed our equipment and headed for the hangar. The Fort was still outside, basking in the warm spring sunshine. We rounded the corner of the hangar and Lou spotted her for the first time. His eyes widened and in the two year I had know Lou, he uttered the first obscenity I had ever heard. He said, "Well, I'll be damned!" Watching Lou crawl through "his" plane was one of the most unique and interesting experiences of my life. He spoke of his six foot tail-gunner, Robert Megechelson, and how his tail-gunner had "really wanted" that position; about the relief tube in the cockpit, how, if a pilot forgot to notify the ball-turret gunner of the impending flow, the ball turret's windows would freeze, rendering the turret useless. We discussed frontal attacks by enemy fighters, the oxygen system and the time Lou's crew had to "hit the silk" when the landing gear on his B-17 wouldn't fully extend. Lou was such a unique fellow. I envyed and respected this man in the same way I envyed and respected my own father. Sharing Lou's stories about the war and what the war had meant to him, I felt for a brief time closer to Lou than my own father, a sort of camaraderie unique to a person who has never experienced war. After much hero worship and rhetoric on my part, I finally realized that Lou was just the typical airman of the 8th AAF. He did not consider himself a hero, nor did he consider what he did anything out of the ordinary. As he once said, "We did what we had to do at the time; we never thought about the danger." It's 4:30 a.m. and I am already awake, not that I slept any during the night. I sit up on the side of my bed, turn on the light, grab the telephone and dial Midland/Odessa Flight Service. The station operator answers, and I inquire as to the weather along our designated flight path. The operator responds with, "Cloudy and broken at 10,000, winds 274 degrees at 15 knots, gusting to 20." Perfect, no fronts, we'll fly today. We arrive at the hangar at 5:30 a.m. and go inside to meet the rest of the crew. Pat, the pilot, hands us an insurance waiver and asks for our signature. In a nutshell, the waiver states we won't sue him or the CAF in the event we are killed or maimed during the flight. I pull out a pen and ink my name before even reading the document. My adrenaline is flowing at full throttle. Pat informs us we may move about the plane once we are airborne, yet cautions there are many rough edges in the plane and air turbulence is unpredictable - so be careful. He also indicates the location of air sick bags and ear plugs. We board the B-17 from the waist hatch. Lou and I climb to the nose of the aircraft. I'm think to myself, this isn't real, this isn't happening. My mind is racing and can not yet comprehend that a lifelong dream is about to come true. I feel as if I am out of my body looking down at this young guy and this old guy crawling through this 50 year old aircraft. I look out through the Plexiglas nose and see the fire tender, holding a rather large fire extinguisher, I mentally note, and hear him say in a muffled voice, "Start one first, Pat!." I look to my left and see the port outboard engine, engine #1, slowly turning over. "9 blades, mags on, mesh and start!," I hear the copilot as he instructs Pat on starting procedure. The engine catches and roars to life. The fire tender holds up two fingers. I see his lips move but can't hear him over the roar of the first engine. I see the inboard port engine, #2, turning over. Blue smoke pours from the exhaust manifold waste gate. For an instant I wonder if we are on fire. I turn and look out the starboard window in time to see engine #4 firing up. All four of the Hamilton Standard, three-bladed, constant speed, variable pitch propellers are turning in unison, and I am absolutely overwhelmed by the blaring roar of the engines, even though I know the engines are at an idle speed. The thick, acrid smell of burnt engine oil and high-octane av gas permeates every crevice of the plane's interior. The plane is vibrating so much that I can barely steady my video camera. A high pitched whine can be heard over the steady drone of the engines, and I realize the pilot is cycling the flaps up and down in a pre-takeoff test. The plane lurches forward as the pilot releases those damn squeeky brakes. (Boeing never could make an aircraft withour squeeky brakes!) We swing off of the tarmac and onto a taxiway, the Fortress gently rocking and swaying over the bumps and dips in the taxiway, as the bright Texas sunshine pours through every opening in the nose of the plane. I feel a trickle of sweat pouring down my neck and am surprised because I am not hot. We reach the threshold of the active runway from which we will be departing and swing the nose of the plane into the wind. One by one the pilot runs up each engine to 1600 RPM. With each engine acceleration, the plane bucks and vibrates, wanting to leave the binding force of Earth's gravity behind. The pilot runs up number 3 and 4 together. The high pitched roar of the two Cyclones is music to my ears; no other sound in this world can ever simulate the deep-throated, guttural roar of a 1200 horse power Wright Cyclone at full throttle. Lou turns to me a says , "Can you imagine 30 B-17s lining up on a runway?" In a far off place in my mind I hear myself answer, "I've seen it in the movies but can't imagine it in real life!" "The way it was!" Lou yells back. We start rolling towards the active runway. The pilot turns the lumbering Fort so that the nose is pointed straight down the white-stripped centerline. The airplane pauses for just a moment and then, slowly, the pilot accelerates all four engines. I hear Lou, now yelling at the top of his voice, "He's got to go 110 before he can get up!" The sound from the engines begins as a dull roar and progresses to an outright, ear deafening, rhythmic scream. The force of acceleration momentarily causes me to loose my balance, and I almost fall off of the bombardiers platform. We are rolling. (I secretly imagine we a taking off from an ancient, weed-choked runway in the swirling mist of the North Sea, laden with five 1,000 pounders, destined for the ball-bearing works at Schweinfurt.) I am pointing my video camera down the end of the runway. We are moving faster and faster. I'm hearing the tires clicking over the expansion joints in the runway. The white striped centerline is now looking like a continuous white line. The massive wings are slowly becoming airborne. I feel a sudden jerk, the plane swings 15 degrees into the wind, and I realize we are off the ground. A life long dream has come true. I turn around and point my video camera out the starboard window. Those magnificent Wright Cyclones have come into an element all their own. I see the runway growing smaller and smaller and can see the airport dropping away in the distance. I hear the pilot throttling back and synchronizing the engines. I'm thinking to myself, I'm in seventh heaven, it can't get any better than this! I turn and look closely at Lou for the first time since taking off. The plane starts a steep bank, and I quickly look out of the side window and see the port wing dipping below the horizon. Lou is staring straight ahead with an intense, yet far off look in his eyes. I can tell by the expression on his face, that for him, he is again a twenty-four year old bomber pilot winging his way eastward for yet another bombing raid on the crumbling remains of the Third Reich. For Lou, the clock has turned back 47 years. For a brief moment I transcend time. I see the well-groomed and manicured landscape of the English Midlands racing below us; the steep, contrasting walls of the White Cliffs of Dover; and white caps dancing on the English Channel. I wonder what it must have been like to see thousands (yes, thousands) of heavy bombers popping through the early morning cloud cover, lining up on designated Splasher beacons for force assembly. What was it like to see the first vapor trails streaming from your ship as you climbed to your best operational altitude? Mostly, I wonder what it was like to have hundreds of German fighters and thousands of German flak batteries trying to knock you out of the sky. (Lou once described this feeling as walking totally naked down a very busy highway. Think about it.) I videotape every possible component of this remarkable aircraft during our 2 1/2 hour flight to San Antonio. I speak with the pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. Before I know it, the flight is almost over, as the canal running through downtown San Antonio looms in the distance. An airshow is in progress, and I see CAF's B-25, "Yellow Rose," escorting us off of our starboard wing. After landing, we taxi to our assigned parking area, stop, and power down all four engines. Even though the engines have stopped, I can still hear their monotonous throbbing echoing in my almost deaf ears. One of the ground personnel opens the nose hatch, and wanting to look "cool" to the many bystanders like Steve McQueen in the movie the War Lover, I casually swing out of the nose hatch and drop six feet to the ground. A resounding applause rises from the crowd, and I shed my best "awe shucks" expression. So this is what it was like to fly on the "Queen," the "Queen of the Skies." No other airplane is as great and graceful in flight and it is no small wonder that large crowds gather wherever she lands, why cars and trucks screech to a stop in an effort to catch but just a glimpse of this awesome machine. She is a rich part of our history, our heritage, a flying monument for all those who fought and died over enemy skies to keep this county free. ***** From MSargeM@aol.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:43:43 EDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:43:43 EDT From: MSargeM@aol.com MSargeM@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs Hi Gary, Looks like the 303rd digest will be a a hit. My name is Morton Moon And the assist crew chief of the Knockout Dropper. Wonder if any ground troops are on the internet as I dont recall seeing any names. Mort Moon From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:46:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:46:10 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Rules of the Air Rules of the Air 1. Every take-off is optional. Every landing is mandatory. 2. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, the houses get smaller. This is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then the houses get bigger again. 3. Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous. 4. It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here. 5. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire. 6. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot sweating. 7. When in doubt, hold onto your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky. 8. A "good" landing is one from which you can walk away. A "great" landing is one after which they can use the plane again. 9. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself. 10. You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp. 11. The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. 12. Never let your airplane take you somewhere you brain didn't get to five minutes earlier. 13. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have also been known to hide in clouds. 14. Always try to keep the number of take-offs you make equal to the number of landings. 15. There are three very simple rules for making a smooth landing. Only problem is no one knows what they are. 16. You start the game with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag with experience before you empty the bag of luck. 17. Helicopters can't fly. Yes, it's true. They are just so ugly, the Earth naturally repels them. 18. If all you can see out the windows is ground that's going around and around, and all you hear is commotion coming from the back of the plane, all is not as it should be. 19. In the ongoing battle between aluminum objects going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to loose. 20. Good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience comes from bad judgement. 21. It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going forward as much as possible. 22. Keep looking around. There's always something you missed. 23. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law. And it is not subject to repeal. 24. The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above him, the runway behind him, and a tenth of a second ago. >From Kevin Pearson, a pilot who has been flying so long that when he started, flying was considered dangerous and sex was considered safe. From westwind@candw.ky Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:55:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:55:40 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #2 - 17 msgs Arni L. Sumarlidason here. I was a co-Pilot in Frank (Suki) Thompsons crew, then took over Beneke's crew in 1942-43. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdbga.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdbga.com] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 2:35 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Subject: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #2 - 17 msgs Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com You can reach the person managing the list at 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs (AMS303@aol.com) 2. Re: Introductions (Jim Walling) 3. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs (Wmjdallas@aol.com) 4. Re: Introductions (D Hayworth) 5. Re: Introductions (Gary Moncur) 6. re:I am. (Edward L Frank) 7. Re; 303rd talk (tmays) 8. Greetings (Jprencher@aol.com) 9. Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs (B17GSparks@aol.com) 10. Re: Introductions (WCarter516@aol.com) 11. Re: Introductions (WCarter516@aol.com) 12. RE: Introductions (allen@texasdirect.com) 13. Re: Introductions (IBSPEC@aol.com) 14. Could be ? (Dyle Davidson) 15. Just landed on the list. (Hollritt, Todd) 16. Hi Fellas: (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) 17. Flight Into The Past (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: AMS303@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:48:53 EDT To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs In a message dated 7/30/2000 7:51:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: << Re: I >> --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:17:44 -1000 To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com From: Jim Walling Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Hi, I'm Jim Walling. I was the ball turret gunner for Lt. Godberlet's crew in the 358th Squadron. We flew our first mission on 26nov44 and our 35th on 20Mar45. My cousin, Glen Walling, flew With Lt. Mauger in a lead crew and was shot down and killed over Czechoslovakia on the last mission the 303rd flew in the war. My best to all> Jim --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Wmjdallas@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:51:30 EDT To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs I'm William J (Bill) Dallas, copilot on the Charles Mars crew shot down near St. Omer, France on March 26, 1944. POW for rest of War at Stalag Luft I, Barth, Germany. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "D Hayworth" To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:08:17 -0500 charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Hello! I'm Major Doug Hayworth and I'm a maintenance officer with the Oklahoma Air National Guard (C-130's). I'm a WWII (B-17) history enthusiast and was privileged to provide the color guard at the 303rd reunion in OKC. I've done some research into 303rd members buried in military cemeteries in Europe and have a complete list available. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 2:42 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions > Looks like we're off to a pretty good start with 303rd-Talk. There > are about 45 members signed up thus far. About half have > selected the digest rather than regular mail. Right now it appears > that the digest is not working - or is at least delayed in being sent > out. It that remains a problem, I'll have to make some changes. > > Since all I see are email addresses, some of which are pretty > cryptic, would everyone please reply to this and give a short > introduction so we all can tell who is here? > > I'm Gary Moncur, son of Vern L. Moncur 359th pilot. He passed > away in 1985. > > Regards, > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk > --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gary Moncur" Organization: 303rd BGA To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:32:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Welcome, Doug, I believe our historian Harry Gobrecht has that list. When he sees this we can make sure. > Hello! I'm Major Doug Hayworth and I'm a maintenance officer with the > Oklahoma Air National Guard (C-130's). I'm a WWII (B-17) history > enthusiast and was privileged to provide the color guard at the 303rd > reunion in OKC. I've done some research into 303rd members buried in > military cemeteries in Europe and have a complete list available. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:41:41 -0400 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com From: Edward L Frank Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] re:I am. Hello, I am Edward L. Frank, Reading,PA. My Uncle, John P Millek, 303rdBG, 359 Sqd. T/G. Lt.Patrick H. Brabant Crew. His nick name was JP, Passed away 1988. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "tmays" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:54:50 -0500 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009E_01BFFA79.2A771FA0" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re; 303rd talk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BFFA79.2A771FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi- I am Tom Mays. I flew waist gunner for 27 missions and finished up = in the ball.=20 Harry Gobrecht was my pilot and I might say a great one!! Wish everyone the best ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BFFA79.2A771FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi- I am Tom Mays. I flew waist gunner for 27 = missions and=20 finished up in the ball.
Harry Gobrecht was my pilot and I might say a great=20 one!!
 
Wish everyone the best
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BFFA79.2A771FA0-- --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Jprencher@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:00:00 EDT To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings Hi Gang: I was in the 358th during 1944 as a pilot and copilot. I flew about half my missions as copilot on the Werner G. Goering crew and the other half as pilot. I flew several missions as check pilot with new crews on their first mission so I might have flown your first mission with some of you. You can tell if I was flying as we usually bounced 3 to 6 times when we landed. I got to practice several landings that way with each final, but we landed back in England at least once on every one of the 35. Sometimes though the poor old birds we got back in went to the scrap pile I fear. We never aborted so they were always in good shape when we left and I've always been grateful to you fellows who worked all night to get them that way. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher Jprencher@AOL.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: B17GSparks@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:09:51 EDT To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #1 - 32 msgs Hi Gary; My name is Ray Calenberg. I flew my 35 missions as radio operator in the 358th squadron in the B-17 we named Henn's Revenge. This is an excellent piece of work you are doing for the "happy warriors" ..... Thanks very much. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: WCarter516@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:04:25 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com I am Bill Carter, Ball turret gunner on Joe Gordon's crew intially, later Neil Cunningham's crew-358th, 35 missions, Dec 1944 to late Apr 1945 at Molesworth. Retired and live in Ames, IA --__--__-- Message: 11 From: WCarter516@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:07:54 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Jim-I think we met at Molesworth, Iwas a BT gunner on Neil Cunningham's ccrew in the 358th, the mission to Pilsen was my 35th. Bill Carter --__--__-- Message: 12 From: allen@texasdirect.com To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:01:04 -0500 charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Greetings, Thanks for putting this together. My name is Allen Miller. My dad passed away in 1988. His name was H.Clifton Miller, T/Sgt., 359th, engineer/gunner with the 1st crew of the "Sweet LaRhonda" He was about 34 years old when he was flying combat, and I think at one time he said that he might have been the oldest man in the group flying combat at that particular time. I have a few pictures that could be of interest to other folks and will try to get them scanned soon. He kept a few comments regarding each of his 35 missions on paper tags attached to bomb arming pins, probably one of my most prized possessions. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:39 AM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Looks like we're off to a pretty good start with 303rd-Talk. There are about 45 members signed up thus far. About half have selected the digest rather than regular mail. Right now it appears that the digest is not working - or is at least delayed in being sent out. It that remains a problem, I'll have to make some changes. Since all I see are email addresses, some of which are pretty cryptic, would everyone please reply to this and give a short introduction so we all can tell who is here? I'm Gary Moncur, son of Vern L. Moncur 359th pilot. He passed away in 1985. Regards, - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk --__--__-- Message: 13 From: IBSPEC@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:23:19 EDT Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introductions To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com i am donald o."SPEC" campen,jr. of 427th and only living member of pilot lonski's crew. am a prime cheer leader to get eligible persons to join our bga. . thanks be to god that we have such a dedicated able and willing gary moncur of this creative web site and the wisdom of our officers and board that inspires our participation herein. ibspec@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: jody53@webtv.net (Dyle Davidson) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Could be ? --WebTV-Mail-13311-2165 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Jim Wallin----My name is Dyle Davidson, a gunner in the 359th. On January 23rd 1945, I flew 'bastard' on Warren Maugher's crew. We were shot up pretty bad and didn't make it home. We spent a week or so, on the continent before we could get back to England.I am assuming, Glen flew that day and I'm sure as my fading memory serves me----Glen's crew and I had a good time, one of the highlights of my war ! Can you confirm any of this ? Dyle Davidson --WebTV-Mail-13311-2165 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-13311-2165-- --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: "'303rd-talk@303rdbga.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:00:54 -0400 charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just landed on the list. Hello all, Just landed on the list. My name is Todd Hollritt son of Alfred K. Hollritt 303BG (H) 427th SQ. Dad arrived in Molesworth April 1944 and finished his tour October 1944. He was a Ball Turret gunner on the Lt. Charles E. Johnson crew (You can see two crew photos at 303rdbga.com web page). Late in his tour Dad was assigned to the "Path Finder" H2X radar equipped B-17Gs that were stationed at Chelveston with the 305th BG (H). Dad is doing great at 77, Along with my Brother Barry and I he made his first trip back to Molesworth last September and returned again with the 303rd Bomb Group last month for the Hanger Dance and Memorial Dedication. We also toured a huge chunk of 1st and 2nd Air Division bases in England as well as the Duxford air Museum, The RAF museum at Hendon and the city of London and the Cottswold's. And we visited every Pub along the way! :o) Todd- --__--__-- Message: 16 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:05:21 -0500 charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Fellas: I'm new to this forum and was asked to tell you a bit about myself. Well, here goes. I'm 43 and for as long as I can remember, I have been facinated with the B-17. I could legally fly airplanes before I could legally drive cars. One of my instructors was a waist gunner on a 390th BG(H) Fort at Parnham (Framlingham), Oran Laourer. He never talked to me about the war, but he sparks my curiosity when I would overhear him talking to other vets that hung out at the airport. In 1991 I sat down for a root beer float at Lou's Drive Inn in Peoria Illinois. I am attaching a story about my first flight in a B-17. It has been published in several 8th AF newsletters, you might have seen it. The owner of Lou's Drive Inn, Louis LaHood (2Lt., Pilot of Lassie Come Home, 42-31673, 322nd BS, 91st BG, May to June of 44) talked me into writing my first book. In 1998 and 1999, I went to Germany to find Lou LaHood's B-17, Lassie Come Home, s/n 42-31673, that was shot down over Deiderode, Germany, on 16.8.44 by fighters. There were six Fortresses lost from the 324th BS (Lassie was assigned to the 324th that day) of the 91st BG(H), and I have found the crash sites of three. I've found about 200 pounds of exploded ammo, CO2 containers from Mae Wests, parts of flak vests, and hundreds of other pieces. (All of this was restored to museum quality standards and will soon be on display at the Tower Museum in Bassingbourn.) Ok, ok, enough about the 91st. When I went to England on business in 1997, I had the weekend free and could have gone anywhere in Europe. But I elected to go to Bassingbourn - Lou's old base. Going there was incredible! I knew I would have to return to see other bases. When I got back to the States, I found out how difficult it was to get information on the former 8th Air Force heavy bomber bases as I was planning my next airfield visits. I soon decided to write a field guide for visiting the old stations - history of each, photos of the base then and now, the memorials, Ordinance survey maps showing locations, property owners, pubs and churches having memoribilia from the war, and where to eat and where to stay. So, I have spent four weeks in the last two years visiting the old stations and photographing what still remains. Ok, ok, yes, Airfields of the Eighth by Freeman and One Last Look sound similar, but Airfields of the Eighth was published in 1979 and is woefully outdated, and One Last Look does not tell a person what he needs to know to visit the old stations. I've been to 42 of the stations, all 8th AF heavy bases, from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ADs. Because so much of the strategic bombing campaign was governed by the ground offensive after D-Day, I have been studying the land war too. I've been to the Normany beach head, the V-1 and V-2 laund sites at Calais, the Cologne Cathedral, the Ludendorf Bridge at Remagen, the submarine pens at Kiel, and the FAG Kugelfischer Georg Schafer Company (ball bearings) at Schweinfurt. Last year I spent a week with two Dutch Resistance fighters who gave me a personal tour of all of the battlefields and bridges associated with Operation Market Garden. Spectacular! (To walk across the bridges at Arnhem and Nijmegen was awesome!) And next April, I'm doing Battle of the Bulge sites - Hurtgen Forest, Aachen, Bastogne, Malmedy, etc. I am secretary of the Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing of the Eighth Air Force Historical Society and publish our state chapter's newsletter - The Rally Point. I was also voted an honory life member of the national Eighth Air Force Historical Society by its board for all of the work I have done for them. And I want all of you to know I have never taken one thin dime for all of the work I have done for the men of the Eighth. I feel very strongly that I should not profit from what 26,000 men paid for with their lives. I get 20 to 30 letters a week from people researching planes, missions and men. I answer all of them. If any of you are heading across the pond and want to know other bases to visit, let me know. I have everything you would need. Now a question: Was The Fox in business during the war, and do any of you have any specific memories of your time there? I had lunch there after visiting with Brian McGuire and Molesworth. (And I would love to do the hangar dance that is done from time to time for you 303rdsters!) Well, that's it fellas. I'm very pleased to be part of your chat group. Kevin M. Pearson 2514 W. Woodland St. Joseph, MO 64506 Phone: 800.748.7856 816.232.4461 Fax: 816.364.4873 e-mail: kpearson@saintjoseph.com --__--__-- Message: 17 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:36:22 -0500 charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past A Flight Into The Past By: Kevin M. Pearson - 1992 The crisp, morning air in Midland, Texas, was abruptly broken by the thunderous, deep-throated roar of four, 1200 horsepower Wright Cyclone engines, belonging to the B-17 Flying Fortress named "Texas Raiders." Each engine coughed, sputtered and belched large quantities of blue, oil-laden exhaust as each of the nine cylinder Cyclones, one by one, roared to life with a sound reminiscent of a time long past. It all started in the summer of 1991 when I sat down for a root beer float at Lou's Drive-In in Peoria, Illinois. On that day, I was wearing a cap bearing the letters and numerals "B-17G" and a T-shirt with a picture of a B-17 Flying Fortress on it. The owner of Lou's Drive-In, Louis LaHood, came up to me and asked in a skeptical and somewhat sarcastic tone what a young guy like me knew about the B-17 Flying Fortress. Lou had been a pilot with the Eighth Army Air Force, 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) and had flown 30 combat missions over occupied Europe during World War II. We spent the rest of that day discussing such things as manual versus automatic turbo-supercharging, the magnetic flux-gate compass, stratospheric flight characteristics, and, of course, the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress versus its major rival, the Consolidated B-24 Liberator. During our conversation, I told Lou I was writing a book about this remarkable aircraft and this is what he said to me, "Before you can ever write a book about the B-17, you have to fly on one. No other plane flies quite like the 17." I took his advice to heart and contacted the Confederate Air Force (CAF) museum in Midland, Texas, and after several months, received permission for both Lou and myself to fly on their B-17, affectionately known as "The Raiders." My photographer and I arrived in Midland at 10:00 p.m. on the night of March 28, 1992. We had been on the road since 6:00 a.m. that morning but before checking into our motel, before even eating dinner, we were overpowered by the urge to go to CAF Headquarters and see the "Fort." There was a certain magnetism in the air, something drawing us to the Fortress, a force so strong that we both had but one purpose and that was to see the B-17. We walked into the main hangar at CAF Headquarters and were immediately greeted by the sounds of "Chattanooga Choo Choo," a wartime classic originally sung by Frances Langford in 1942. A party was in progress - one of many hosted by the CAF each year. There were many people in the hangar, some sitting, some standing, some dancing, their voices echoing in a muffled staccato in the vast and cavernous expanses of the hangar. I gazed about and saw a multitude of World War II aircraft. The air was thick with the smell of high-octane aviation fuel and other assorted olfactory delights common only to a place where aircraft are stored. In the background I could hear the lead vocalist singing, "There's gonna be a special someone at the station, satin and lace, I use to call funny face." To my left was an F-82, a Siamese twin version of the P-51 Mustang, to my right a German ME-109. Straight ahead was "FiFi," a Boeing B-29 Superfortress with all four engines detached from their nacelles, obviously undergoing what we in the aviation community call an annual. Where was the B-17? She wasn't in the hangar. Then, out of the corner of my eye, I spotted her and the distinctive shape of her Plexiglas nose. She was parked outside of the hangar on the "hardstand." The expansive hangar doors were only partially cracked, exposing only a frontal view of the fuselage. We began walking towards the "Fort" as the band started its rendition of Glenn Miller's "Little Brown Jug." Actually our walk simulated a gallop, and the closer we got to the "Fort," the faster our strides became. I could hear one gentleman in the background, somewhat inebriated from the nights festivities, bellowing, "And there we were at 24,000 feet, one engine feathered and one on fire, when we began pitching like this and we started going down," (he made an arching motion with his hand) his story becoming inaudible as we breezed past him. We had walked into a time warp. Certainly I must be having a dream. We walked right by security, right by the band and slipped out through the hangar doors. There she was in all of her splendor, silhouetted by the glare of the hangar lights. We just stood there, mouths wide open and stared up in amazed delight. Before us was this huge, four-engine behemoth of an airplane, the type of plane I had studied for the better part of the last fifteen years. We walked around her, peering into every window, sliding our hands over her smooth control surfaces until it seemed like we studied every rivet on that plane. We spent the next hour just hanging around that old bird. I felt a sense of awe just being in the presence of this time machine, a machine that had helped accomplish so much during those dark days of 1943 and 1945. The next day we met Lou, who was flying in from Peoria, then with the Flight Operations Coordinator of the Confederate Air Force. We received our flight instructions - we would fly the next day and could spend the rest of this day photographing the Fortress inside and out. We grabbed our equipment and headed for the hangar. The Fort was still outside, basking in the warm spring sunshine. We rounded the corner of the hangar and Lou spotted her for the first time. His eyes widened and in the two year I had know Lou, he uttered the first obscenity I had ever heard. He said, "Well, I'll be damned!" Watching Lou crawl through "his" plane was one of the most unique and interesting experiences of my life. He spoke of his six foot tail-gunner, Robert Megechelson, and how his tail-gunner had "really wanted" that position; about the relief tube in the cockpit, how, if a pilot forgot to notify the ball-turret gunner of the impending flow, the ball turret's windows would freeze, rendering the turret useless. We discussed frontal attacks by enemy fighters, the oxygen system and the time Lou's crew had to "hit the silk" when the landing gear on his B-17 wouldn't fully extend. Lou was such a unique fellow. I envyed and respected this man in the same way I envyed and respected my own father. Sharing Lou's stories about the war and what the war had meant to him, I felt for a brief time closer to Lou than my own father, a sort of camaraderie unique to a person who has never experienced war. After much hero worship and rhetoric on my part, I finally realized that Lou was just the typical airman of the 8th AAF. He did not consider himself a hero, nor did he consider what he did anything out of the ordinary. As he once said, "We did what we had to do at the time; we never thought about the danger." It's 4:30 a.m. and I am already awake, not that I slept any during the night. I sit up on the side of my bed, turn on the light, grab the telephone and dial Midland/Odessa Flight Service. The station operator answers, and I inquire as to the weather along our designated flight path. The operator responds with, "Cloudy and broken at 10,000, winds 274 degrees at 15 knots, gusting to 20." Perfect, no fronts, we'll fly today. We arrive at the hangar at 5:30 a.m. and go inside to meet the rest of the crew. Pat, the pilot, hands us an insurance waiver and asks for our signature. In a nutshell, the waiver states we won't sue him or the CAF in the event we are killed or maimed during the flight. I pull out a pen and ink my name before even reading the document. My adrenaline is flowing at full throttle. Pat informs us we may move about the plane once we are airborne, yet cautions there are many rough edges in the plane and air turbulence is unpredictable - so be careful. He also indicates the location of air sick bags and ear plugs. We board the B-17 from the waist hatch. Lou and I climb to the nose of the aircraft. I'm think to myself, this isn't real, this isn't happening. My mind is racing and can not yet comprehend that a lifelong dream is about to come true. I feel as if I am out of my body looking down at this young guy and this old guy crawling through this 50 year old aircraft. I look out through the Plexiglas nose and see the fire tender, holding a rather large fire extinguisher, I mentally note, and hear him say in a muffled voice, "Start one first, Pat!." I look to my left and see the port outboard engine, engine #1, slowly turning over. "9 blades, mags on, mesh and start!," I hear the copilot as he instructs Pat on starting procedure. The engine catches and roars to life. The fire tender holds up two fingers. I see his lips move but can't hear him over the roar of the first engine. I see the inboard port engine, #2, turning over. Blue smoke pours from the exhaust manifold waste gate. For an instant I wonder if we are on fire. I turn and look out the starboard window in time to see engine #4 firing up. All four of the Hamilton Standard, three-bladed, constant speed, variable pitch propellers are turning in unison, and I am absolutely overwhelmed by the blaring roar of the engines, even though I know the engines are at an idle speed. The thick, acrid smell of burnt engine oil and high-octane av gas permeates every crevice of the plane's interior. The plane is vibrating so much that I can barely steady my video camera. A high pitched whine can be heard over the steady drone of the engines, and I realize the pilot is cycling the flaps up and down in a pre-takeoff test. The plane lurches forward as the pilot releases those damn squeeky brakes. (Boeing never could make an aircraft withour squeeky brakes!) We swing off of the tarmac and onto a taxiway, the Fortress gently rocking and swaying over the bumps and dips in the taxiway, as the bright Texas sunshine pours through every opening in the nose of the plane. I feel a trickle of sweat pouring down my neck and am surprised because I am not hot. We reach the threshold of the active runway from which we will be departing and swing the nose of the plane into the wind. One by one the pilot runs up each engine to 1600 RPM. With each engine acceleration, the plane bucks and vibrates, wanting to leave the binding force of Earth's gravity behind. The pilot runs up number 3 and 4 together. The high pitched roar of the two Cyclones is music to my ears; no other sound in this world can ever simulate the deep-throated, guttural roar of a 1200 horse power Wright Cyclone at full throttle. Lou turns to me a says , "Can you imagine 30 B-17s lining up on a runway?" In a far off place in my mind I hear myself answer, "I've seen it in the movies but can't imagine it in real life!" "The way it was!" Lou yells back. We start rolling towards the active runway. The pilot turns the lumbering Fort so that the nose is pointed straight down the white-stripped centerline. The airplane pauses for just a moment and then, slowly, the pilot accelerates all four engines. I hear Lou, now yelling at the top of his voice, "He's got to go 110 before he can get up!" The sound from the engines begins as a dull roar and progresses to an outright, ear deafening, rhythmic scream. The force of acceleration momentarily causes me to loose my balance, and I almost fall off of the bombardiers platform. We are rolling. (I secretly imagine we a taking off from an ancient, weed-choked runway in the swirling mist of the North Sea, laden with five 1,000 pounders, destined for the ball-bearing works at Schweinfurt.) I am pointing my video camera down the end of the runway. We are moving faster and faster. I'm hearing the tires clicking over the expansion joints in the runway. The white striped centerline is now looking like a continuous white line. The massive wings are slowly becoming airborne. I feel a sudden jerk, the plane swings 15 degrees into the wind, and I realize we are off the ground. A life long dream has come true. I turn around and point my video camera out the starboard window. Those magnificent Wright Cyclones have come into an element all their own. I see the runway growing smaller and smaller and can see the airport dropping away in the distance. I hear the pilot throttling back and synchronizing the engines. I'm thinking to myself, I'm in seventh heaven, it can't get any better than this! I turn and look closely at Lou for the first time since taking off. The plane starts a steep bank, and I quickly look out of the side window and see the port wing dipping below the horizon. Lou is staring straight ahead with an intense, yet far off look in his eyes. I can tell by the expression on his face, that for him, he is again a twenty-four year old bomber pilot winging his way eastward for yet another bombing raid on the crumbling remains of the Third Reich. For Lou, the clock has turned back 47 years. For a brief moment I transcend time. I see the well-groomed and manicured landscape of the English Midlands racing below us; the steep, contrasting walls of the White Cliffs of Dover; and white caps dancing on the English Channel. I wonder what it must have been like to see thousands (yes, thousands) of heavy bombers popping through the early morning cloud cover, lining up on designated Splasher beacons for force assembly. What was it like to see the first vapor trails streaming from your ship as you climbed to your best operational altitude? Mostly, I wonder what it was like to have hundreds of German fighters and thousands of German flak batteries trying to knock you out of the sky. (Lou once described this feeling as walking totally naked down a very busy highway. Think about it.) I videotape every possible component of this remarkable aircraft during our 2 1/2 hour flight to San Antonio. I speak with the pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. Before I know it, the flight is almost over, as the canal running through downtown San Antonio looms in the distance. An airshow is in progress, and I see CAF's B-25, "Yellow Rose," escorting us off of our starboard wing. After landing, we taxi to our assigned parking area, stop, and power down all four engines. Even though the engines have stopped, I can still hear their monotonous throbbing echoing in my almost deaf ears. One of the ground personnel opens the nose hatch, and wanting to look "cool" to the many bystanders like Steve McQueen in the movie the War Lover, I casually swing out of the nose hatch and drop six feet to the ground. A resounding applause rises from the crowd, and I shed my best "awe shucks" expression. So this is what it was like to fly on the "Queen," the "Queen of the Skies." No other airplane is as great and graceful in flight and it is no small wonder that large crowds gather wherever she lands, why cars and trucks screech to a stop in an effort to catch but just a glimpse of this awesome machine. She is a rich part of our history, our heritage, a flying monument for all those who fought and died over enemy skies to keep this county free. ***** --__--__-- _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk End of 303rd-Talk Digest_______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk From FDBA3@aol.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:48:54 EDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:48:54 EDT From: FDBA3@aol.com FDBA3@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Hello, I am Amy Hanbery grand-daughter of William A. Testoni who was in the three hunddred and fifty eighth. From IBSPEC@aol.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:54:37 EDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:54:37 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past ke4vin pearson, i for one thank you for sending your experience this past email. ibspec@aol.com From glm@xmission.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:06:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:06:28 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past > > A Flight Into The Past > By: Kevin M. Pearson - 1992 > Kevin, That's quite a story. Thanks for posting it. I hope to fly in a B-17 someday. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From IBSPEC@aol.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:09:04 EDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:09:04 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past gary moncur. i thought you had done before. ibspec@aol.com From glm@xmission.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:11:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:11:23 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight Into The Past > > gary moncur. i thought you had done before. ibspec@aol.com > Fly on a B-17? Never had the chance. I have climbed through a few of them, though. Maybe someday. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From gordy@saltspring.com Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:24:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:24:43 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intros, Gordy Alton My name is Gordon Alton. I go by Gordy, and sometimes 'tailgunnerson'. I am a member of the 91st BGMA, the East Anglia Aviation Society, CombatVets, and the Luftwaffe Archives group. I live in British Columbia, Canada. I am 45, and my father, Donald Merle Alton, is a veteran of the 91st BG, 323d BS. He is still alive and lives here in Canada as well. I have studied the war all of my life, and have a pretty good background on most aspects of WWII. I do a little research on things concerning the 91st, the 8AF, and try to help others foster the cause of keeping the memory of those valiant men, and women, who fought in all services, to keep us free. I am the next generation after the vets, so it is a little easier for me to accept the veterans of both sides, Axis and Allied, who were all fighting for their respective countries. The time for hate, and revenge, is long gone. I like to think we can work worldwide to foster the greatness the preceding generation gave us as an example to follow. A lot of people gave the ultimate price for that end. Let's work hard to see they are not forgotten. Having said all that, this can be enjoyable and fun, as well. There is a lot of comraderie on the net, especially in the bomber community. I am proud to be associated with it, and all of you. Thanks for letting me be a part of this list. Gordy. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:26:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:26:41 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intros, Gordy Alton Hi Gordy and the rest of you 303rdsters! In 1998 and 1999 I went to Germany an found the crash sites of three B-17s from the 91st BG, 324th BS lost to fighters on the 16.8.44 mission to Halle. I was really nervous going there. First I was traveling alone, and second, I did not know how the Germans would receive me. I was totally flabbergasted by their hospitality and how they bent over backwards to help me. The editor of the local paper, Matthias Heinzel, was my host and I asked him why all of the old Germans I interviewed were so nice and friendly. He said if it hadn't been for the United States, something like 3 million Germans would have frozen or starved to death following the war, and the older generation was extremely grateful for our generosity and how we treated German civilians with respect after the war. I guess the most important lesson I learned from my two digs in Germany was that the war is really over and there is no hostility left over from the war. Do most of the 303rd combat vets feel the same way? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-Talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:29 PM To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk List Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intros, Gordy Alton My name is Gordon Alton. I go by Gordy, and sometimes 'tailgunnerson'. I am a member of the 91st BGMA, the East Anglia Aviation Society, CombatVets, and the Luftwaffe Archives group. I live in British Columbia, Canada. I am 45, and my father, Donald Merle Alton, is a veteran of the 91st BG, 323d BS. He is still alive and lives here in Canada as well. I have studied the war all of my life, and have a pretty good background on most aspects of WWII. I do a little research on things concerning the 91st, the 8AF, and try to help others foster the cause of keeping the memory of those valiant men, and women, who fought in all services, to keep us free. I am the next generation after the vets, so it is a little easier for me to accept the veterans of both sides, Axis and Allied, who were all fighting for their respective countries. The time for hate, and revenge, is long gone. I like to think we can work worldwide to foster the greatness the preceding generation gave us as an example to follow. A lot of people gave the ultimate price for that end. Let's work hard to see they are not forgotten. Having said all that, this can be enjoyable and fun, as well. There is a lot of comraderie on the net, especially in the bomber community. I am proud to be associated with it, and all of you. Thanks for letting me be a part of this list. Gordy. _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-Talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:14:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:14:57 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Return to Bassingbourn Here is a story about my first visit to Bassingbourn, home of the 91st BG(H) during the war. Although the story is about Bassingbourn, it could equally appy to any of the heavy bomber bases of the 8th AF. I hope you enjoy it. Kevin Return to Bassingbourn by: Kevin M. Pearson - 1996 I recently visited Birmingham, England, on business and had the weekend free before returning to the States. I could have gone anywhere in Europe - London, Paris, Dublin - but where did I elect to go with my precious 48 hours? Bassingbourn, England, Station 121, home of the 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) during World War II. Some Background: While writing my book, I met Louis LaHood, who was a pilot with the 91st BG(H), 322nd BS from January to May 1944. Lou was my mentor while writing my book, frequently calling and asking about the book's progress. Lou and I even had the opportunity of flying on a Confederate Air Force B-17, named Texas Raiders, in 1992. Needless to say, I formed a very close bond with Lou over the three years before his untimely death in 1993. Out of a profound respect for this man, I knew I had to visit Bassingbourn if I ever had the chance. On Sunday, 30 September, I was met in Cambridge by Peter Roberts, who is on the board of the East Anglian Aviation Society - the same group which has turned the Tower at Bassingbourn into a museum. I made contact with him through Ron Mackay, the chairman of the Friends of the Eighth - a group of dedicated English citizens who help Americans tour former 8th AF bomber and fighter bases. Peter spent an entire Sunday escorting me around the Bassingbourn/Cambridge area, and I can not thank him enough for his willingness to help this 40 (now 43) year old air historian. Bassingbourn is very much the way it was during the war. It is now the Depot for the Queens Regiment, a British army training unit. There is a very impressive memorial when you first enter the gate from the main highway running by the base - the A-14. There is a B-17 propeller, suspended at the same height as that on a B-17; a large bronze plaque, commemorating the activities of the 91st BG(H); and a park bench donated by the 91st Bomb Group Memorial Association. I saw the H-Block billeting quarters where Lou had slept; the C-type hangars where Lassie Come Home , Lou's B-17, had been repaired; the Nissen Hut where pilot briefings were conducted; the Officer's Mess; and the Tower Museum. I stood on the perimeter tract and runway where so many young men took off and never returned. I saw Wimpole Hall and the row of trees the pilots used as a reference marker to line up with the main runway. Most of the buildings I could not enter since the base is still an active military establishment. I could imagine heavily damaged bombers returning from a mission in the dark gray, low cloud cover which permeated the skies above the base. There is a famous picture of the Memphis Belle buzzing the tower before setting down after her last mission, and I could fully picture how that must have looked. We poked our heads into one of the three remaining C-type hangars, and, just for an instant, I thought I heard a Big Band playing Moonlight Serenade before a Saturday night dance crowd. I even had the distinct pleasure of seeing a reproduction of the "Grand Order of the Rigid Digit," an award made for those who goofed spectacularly - like raising the landing gear before leaving the runway! The award took the shape of a silver fist with the center finger upraised. Members of the Order were also awarded a replica with blue ribbons. The Tower Museum has many interesting artifacts dating back to the time when the RAF was in control of the base. The base had originally been an RAF aerodrome, established in 1938, and was used extensively by Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain. Later, British Wellington, Lancaster and Blenheim bombers used the base; and in early 1942, many bombers were dispatched from Bassingbourn for the first RAF 1,000 plane raid on Cologne. Col. Stanley Wray was the Commander of the 91st BG(H) when the group first arrived in England. The group was originally assigned to a base near Kimbolton, but the Kimbolton base could not withstand the weight of the 30 ton Flying Fortresses. Col. Wray, while traveling to London on the A-14, stopped in at Bassingbourn one day, took one look at the brick buildings and hard surfaced runway, and decided to reassign the 91st to Bassingbourn on a temporary basis - which lasted three and a half year! Station 121 at Bassingbourn was known as "The Country Club," nicknamed by the media in 1942 because of the excellent brick living quarters with central heat and the many paved sections of the base. Bassingbourn was filmed the most during the war by the media because it was close to London and had very fine accommodations for the press corps. Most U.S. air bases were equipped with Nissen Huts, coal stoves, less than modern kitchens and mud (and lots of it, brother). Bassingbourn and nearby Duxford were the airfields used to film the remake of Memphis Belle. As soon as I returned to the States, I watched again William Wylder's original film, Memphis Belle. The base has changed some over the years - more trees, less mud, new asphalt, etc. But other than that, it is very much the same. Peter Roberts, my guide for the day, is a very thorough historian and told me a great deal of information about the filming of the original Memphis Belle. Many of the scenes in the original movie were shot at several air bases in England, and the church featured during the opening segment of the original movie is not the church at Royston, a small village at the south end of the airfield. Rather the church is one from just outside Alconbury, another American air base. Many 91 BG(H) vets have watched the movie and wondered where the steeple is on the church at Royston. Wylder used 100+ cameras in the making of the film, and several scenes in the movie, especially the scenes showing the take-off for Wilhelmshaven, were not filmed at Bassingbourn. The day I visited Bassingbourn, there was an 8/10 cloud cover over the base - low hanging, dark clouds with a brisk wind from the North Sea - making the clouds sail gracefully and quickly over the airfield. Later in the day, it started to rain. Perfect weather for visiting the base and very typical of the weather conditions the crews had to face when taking off or returning to the base. The tower is almost identical to the tower used during the war - only a few modifications have been made. The glass dome was extended several feet after the war when the RAF again took control of the base, and Canberra bombers graced the field. The tower is now a museum and is operated by the East Anglia Aviation Society, a group of remarkable "chaps," who unselfishly donate time and money to a small but important part of history. The first floor of the Tower Museum has quite a collection of RAF memorabilia from the days before the 91st arrived. There is a spiral staircase leading to the second floor, which is filled with artifacts from the 91st BG(H) and the 355th FG at Steeple Morden. There is a separate room on the second floor set aside for memorabilia from the Memphis Belle. Pictures, flight gear, invitations, squadron insignias, models and other interesting 91st collectibles adorn this truly unique museum. During my tour through the museum, I stepped outside alone and walked up to the fence separating the base from the perimeter tract. A cold wind slapped me in the face. As I gazed about, I felt as though I had been thrown back in time. I could almost see 30 B-17 Flying Fortresses lined up on the perimeter tract with engines at idle speed, those massive Hamilton Standard props fanning the swirling mist from the North Sea. Just barely, I thought I could hear the thunderous roar of 120 Wright Cyclones. I turned around and looked at the C-hangars, and for a split second, could visualize the ground crews milling about, waiting for "their" birds to come home; "meat wagons" at the ready; and a mechanic up on a ladder working on the #3 engine of a Fort. I could almost smell the pungent aroma of mud, 100LL aviation fuel and burnt engine oil. I was brought back to reality when, out of the corner of my eye, I spotted a British soldier holding an automatic weapon who was guarding the gate to the runway. Peter also spoke of a feud that had arisen between the 91st BG and the 78th FG at nearby Duxford towards the end of the war. It all started when "Redline," the base canine mascot of the 91st, was spirited away during a joint party on station. With Victory in Europe, the AAF soon got back to spit and polish parades, but the 91st mascot was still missing. During one such parade, the 78th FG personnel were all lined up for inspection at Duxford when a lone B-17 appeared, making a low pass with bomb-doors open, and from within, fell a half ton of horse manure. The 91st waited with bated breath for they knew the "fighter jocks" would not let the event pass without some form of retaliation. Sure enough, the next day, a lone P-51 flew over Bassingbourn and dropped a wreath by the Tower. Attached to the wreath was a card inscribed with the words, "In memory of your Commanding Officer who yesterday, over Duxford, fell from one of your aircraft!" After spending several hours in the Tower Museum and being regaled with many fine stories, Peter took me to Steeple Morden, home of the 355th Fighter Group We parked next to the 355 FG memorial just north of Litlington. As I approached the memorial, there were fresh flowers at its base, and I was again consumed in emotion and had to wipe away yet another tear. I still find it hard to believe the local residents, after 50 years, continue to place fresh flowers at the memorial. The memorial is made up of a wall, out of which protrudes a replica of the nose of a P-51 and propeller. Surrounding the nose section are squadron insignias. Peter and I walked down to what had been the main runway at Steeple Morden. On the way back, we walked through a farmer's field, which had been the 355th FG's technical site. We found pieces of what I would like to believe was an airplane - a lead shielded electrical cable; a section of old, decayed rubber tubing; and a piece of aluminum strapping, joined together by a bucked rivet. Peter Roberts said every year when the farmer plows the field, new debris is found. Several sections of the runway are still intact. A large haystack sits on the east-end of the remaining concrete runway. Peter tells of a glowing light which emanates from a creek at night at the western end of the runway. Story has it the light is the ghost of a young American who inadvertently walked into a spinning propeller. Peter tells this story with a straight face and very somber voice. About 4 p.m. Sunday afternoon, Peter took me to Madingley Cemetery just outside Cambridge. This is a U.S. Cemetery for American servicemen killed in action. 3,811 American servicemen are buried here, and the names of 5,125 are properly enshrined on a 472 foot granite wall. As we began walking towards the Chapel, it started to drizzle. The Chapel - well - words can not properly describe. The entire day I was visiting Bassingbourn, Cambridge, Litlington, Steeple Morden and Royston, I had the unmistakable feeling Lou LaHood was right there by my side. I somehow felt Lou was seeing his old base again through my eyes. I returned to Bassingbourn for you, Lou. From ray.cossey@virgin.net Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:23:33 +0100 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:23:33 +0100 From: ray cossey ray.cossey@virgin.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings from the 'Old Country' Hi Gary Thank you for posting me onto the 303rd Talk facility. What a great idea for allowing all those with a love of the 303rd BG to keep in touch with each other and exchange thoughts and experiences. At 61 I'm far too young to have been actively involved in war service, although as a young boy in England I lived through it all, including the blitz on our cities and homes. My dad was a civilian worker on an 8th Air Force base, Hethel in Norfolk; one of the many 2nd Air Division bases which flew B-24's. In 1979 I attended one of the early 303rd veterans reunions at Dayton, Ohio and, over the years since, have put in an appearance at several in the States and all four over here in England. Indeed I organized the first three held over here in the middle 80's and early 90's. This year I was able to attend, with my wife Theresa, the UK 'final mission' in Cambridge, including the dedication of the 303rd Memorial at the old base at Molesworth. It was also my honour and privilege to make the address of thanks to the 303rd BG, and the other USAAF Groups attending, at the Remembrance Service at the United States War Cemetery at Madingly. At the Washington reunion in 1983 I was humbled, and proud, to have been made an honorary member of the 303rd which was, I was told, in recognition of my work over here, on behalf of the 303rd. I can assure all concerned with our Association that it has been a pleasure to serve the 303rd BG as a heartfelt 'thank you' for all you did for us over here in Great Britain all those many years ago. We would have undoubtedly gone under, but for the sacrifices made by your great country and its servicemen and women. I hope if any 303rders are ever over in the UK at anytime you'll give me a call. My telephone/fax number is (44) 1603 720980 and my address is 73 Blofield Corner Road, Little Plumstead, Norwich, Norfolk, NR13 5HU, England. Theresa and I will be delighted to hear from you and perhaps we can arrange to meet with you. Yours in gratitude Ray Cossey Honorary Member From EISENCOL@aol.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:33:11 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:33:11 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings from the 'Old Country' THANKS RAY AND TERESA... NEXT TIME OVER. WE'LL GET TOGETHER. BEST.... BILL EISENHART From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:41:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:41:09 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Book Reviews - Under the Bombs/War of the Rats Under the Bombs I just finished a book called Under the Bombs, a detailed account of what it was like to live in Germany during the strategic bombing offensive. This is an excellent book and a must read for veterans and serious historians. Under the Bombs details what life was like for German civilians and also chronicals efforts made by the Nazi regime to curtail the Allied efforts and deal with shortages from food to war materials. The author, Eric Beck, is a professor of history at Florida State University, and has spent a considerable amount of time in Germany researching archival records. His account is very detailed and informative. War of the Rats This book is a semi historical account of the two snipers that square off in Stalingrad. Based on historical fact, the author writes a story about the Russian sniper who had 100+ kills and is written up in the Russian military newspaper. When the Germans learn this sniper is operating in Stalingrad, they sent their best sniper to hunt the Russian. I highly recommend this book for those interested in the living condions of the Russians and Germans in Stalingrad. It is a quick and easy read that will have you sitting on pins and needles. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:30:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:30:16 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America, America > Subject: FW: America: The Good Neighbor > > > This, from a Canadian newspaper and is worth sharing. > > America: The Good Neighbor > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a > remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a > Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his > remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the > most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the > earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were > lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of > dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is > today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United > States. > > When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the > Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and > swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that > hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were > flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars > into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are > writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. > > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the > erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any > other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't > they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly > American Planes? > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman > on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. > > You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - > not once, but several times - and safely home again. > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the > store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are > not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of > them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. > > When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down > through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the > Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody > loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of > other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone > else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside > help even during the San Francisco earthquake. > > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned > tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this > thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb > their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I > hope Canada is not one of those." > > Stand proud, Americans > > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding > the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it, I only > wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always > blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things > we do. > > I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as > you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their > friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. > I am just a single American that has read this, > I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON > > > > -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- BusinessWeekani.gif ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From lstoner@gvi.net Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:10:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:10:21 -0500 From: lancestoner lstoner@gvi.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Super Job by Gary This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to all 303rd BGA(H), Gary has done an awsome job with the talk forum as he does in all things = 303rd. In reply to his hope to fly in a 17, I was lucky enough to fly for 30 = minutes in the daylight with no one shooting at me on the ALUMINUM = OVERCAST. I will try to relate my feelings at the reunion to all. Will see Gary, Susan and ALL in San Diego. Thanks again Gary. Lance Stoner Relative Representative 303rd BGA(H) ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi to all 303rd BGA(H),
 
Gary has done an awsome job with the = talk forum=20 as he does in all things 303rd.
 
In reply to his hope to fly in a 17, = I was lucky=20 enough to fly for 30 minutes in the daylight with no one shooting at me = on the=20 ALUMINUM OVERCAST. I will try to relate my feelings at  the reunion = to=20 all.
 
Will see Gary, Susan and ALL in San=20 Diego.
 
Thanks again Gary.
 
Lance Stoner
Relative Representative 303rd=20 BGA(H)
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0-- From glm@xmission.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:09:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:09:48 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Super Job by Gary Lance, Thanks for the comments. I live midway between SLC International airport and SLC Airport #2, almost on the outer marker for SLC. For several years the CAF would have an airshow at Airport #2 each year and would bring in WWII planes. SLC International changed the rules on their airspace, so the airshows pretty much stopped about 10 years ago. I saw Sentimental Journey several times during that time. Each morning of the airshow, they would have a "dawn partol" with the B-17, a B-25 and 6 or 8 T-6s flying formation right over my house. We could hear the radial engines coming and we'd all run outside and watch. What a sound! It was like a magnet. I'd jump in the car and follow them back to the airport and spend the day there. Someday..... We look forward to seeing you ALL in San Diego. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From IBSPEC@aol.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:29:34 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:29:34 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intros, Gordy Alton yup from this virginian. ibspec@aol.com From rhardin@pimacc.pima.edu Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:43:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:43:37 -0700 From: Rick Hardin rhardin@pimacc.pima.edu Subject: [303rd-Talk] [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit   --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Received: from aello.DCO.PIMA.EDU by pimacc.pima.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #16431) id <01JSGNAC5OR498BR1C@pimacc.pima.edu>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:23:06 -0700 Received: from aello.dco.pima.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aello.dco.pima.edu (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11346 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:22:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by aello.dco.pima.edu (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11321 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:21:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from [204.228.149.14] (helo=XMission) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 13JlLp-0006MG-00 for rhardin@pimacc.pima.edu; Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:21:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:20:43 -0700 From: Gary Moncur Subject: Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode) In-reply-to: <39875997.727B5448@pimacc.pima.edu> To: Rick Hardin Reply-to: glm@xmission.com Message-id: <398706EB.6795.14B08DD@localhost> Organization: 303rd BGA MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ)" Priority: normal X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ****************** Virus Scan Message (on aello.dco.pima.edu) noname is scanned and no virus found ( ) ********************************************************* --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Rick, You sent this to the admin address rather than 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com so it didn't make it to the list. Please resend it to the list. Glad you're here! > Hello, > > My name is T.H. "Rick" Hardin III and I am the son of Tom Hardin who > was a B-17 pilot during W.W.II.  I am a pilot for the Pima County > Sheriff's Office in Tucson, AZ where my primary duty is to transport > prisoners on nationwide fugitive extradition warrants.  I am also > adjunct faculty for the Public Safety and Emergency Services Institute > at Pima Community College. > > Thanks and keep up the good work. > > Rick Hardin > > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com wrote: > > > Welcome to the 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com mailing list! We're glad you > > joined. Please send a short message and introduce yourself. > > > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > > >   303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > General information about the mailing list is at: > > > >   http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch > > to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your > > subscription page at: > > > >   > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/options/303rd-talk/rhardin@pimacc.pi > > ma.edu > > > > You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message > > to: > > > >   303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > > > with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the > > quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. > > > > You must know your password to change your options (including > > changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe.  It is: > > > >   Hardin4 > > > > If you forget your password, don't worry, you will receive a monthly > > reminder telling you what all your 303rdBGA.com mailing list > > passwords are, and how to unsubscribe or change your options.  There > > is also a button on your options page that will email your current > > password to you. > > > > You may also have your password mailed to you automatically off of > > the Web page noted above. > > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ)-- --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w)-- From IBSPEC@aol.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:01:22 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:01:22 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] rick hardin. noting pima college. have a friend at that college who moved from univ. of richmon ,va. college to that school couple years ago ,involved with human resources people. chjeers. ibspec@aol.com From CDouglasN@aol.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:16:41 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:16:41 EDT From: CDouglasN@aol.com CDouglasN@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America, America I'd just like to let everyone know of an upcoming B-17 flight simulator due to release sometime between fall and xmas of this year. Its called "B-17 Flying Fortress II, The Mighty Eighth" Its being published by Hasbro Interactive and developed by Wayward Design Studios in Bristol, UK. It looks to be an amazing sim, as crew management is the key to success. For once a sim is coming out that is about the crew and not just the machine. Here is a link to the fan site called Bombs Away. It has all the info you could ever want to know, including screenshots and movies of the game in action. Plus, the developers tend to lurk around in the forums answering questions about the game and things like that. http://www.bombs-away.net Here is a link to the official game site. Although it is rather sparse, and seems to be a work in progress, it does have a basic rundown of the features planning to be included with the game. http://www.b17flyingfortress.com This game looks to be a winner. Check it out! Charles From gordy@saltspring.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:38:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:38:15 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Vox Pop Hello 303rd, This is my first post, other than my intro. I do a little plane research, as you'll find out, and here is an inquiry I would like a little help with. I am trying to nail down some facts on a few different planes, and here is one, or two, of them. The plane is called "Vox Pop". There were a couple of planes by this name, and a couple with a ' II ' after them. The ones I am concerned with flew with the 94BG, the 91BG, and the 303BG. The first plane is serial #42-37767. It was assigned to the 332nd BS of the 94th BG on the 4th of Oct., 1943. It was transferred to the 401st BS of the 91st BG on the 5th of Nov., 1943. This plane crash landed at Cambridge on the 20th of Dec., 1943. The MACR is 1886. The second plane is serial #43-38767. It was assigned to the 332nd BS of the 94th BG on the 4th of Oct., 1944. It was transferred to the 359th BS of the 303rd BG on the 23 of Nov., 1944. It went missing in action over Hamburg on the 20th of Mar, 1945. Pilot may have been Moors, hit by enemy aircraft, 5 KIA, 3 POW. MACR 13570. If anyone has any more info on these planes, please post it here, or to me at gordy@saltspring.com . I will let the talk list in on any findings. These planes were sometimes mixed up and taken for each other, ser. #s were swapped, dates mixed up, etc. I just want to clear up the records, for myself and the groups involved. Thanks, Gordy. From Hydeho13@aol.com Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:40:55 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:40:55 EDT From: Hydeho13@aol.com Hydeho13@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hi Fellas: From warrenburke@worldnet.att.net Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:26:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:26:54 -0500 From: JOHN W. FORD warrenburke@worldnet.att.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ORGINAL CADRE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MORTON MOON - WAS YOU IN THE ORGINAL CADRE FROM THE 43RD BOMB GP, 64TH = BOMB SQ. THAT FORMED THE 359TH BOMB SQ. AT BOISE IN JAN, 1942. BUFORD = PAFFORD, MARTIN BRUCHER, MARTIN YANIGA, FLETCHER HELTON, RAYMOND DUSMAN = ARE THE ONES I REMEMBER. THEY WERE ABOUT 14 OF US IN THAT CADRE THAT = FORMED THE 359TH. IF YOU WERE, DO YOU REMEMBER IN OTHER NAMES. = JOHN FORD = 359TH REPRE. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MORTON MOON - WAS YOU IN THE ORGINAL CADRE FROM THE = 43RD BOMB=20 GP, 64TH BOMB SQ. THAT FORMED THE 359TH BOMB SQ. AT BOISE IN JAN, = 1942. =20 BUFORD PAFFORD, MARTIN BRUCHER, MARTIN YANIGA, FLETCHER HELTON, RAYMOND = DUSMAN=20 ARE THE ONES I REMEMBER.  THEY WERE ABOUT 14 OF US IN THAT CADRE = THAT=20 FORMED THE 359TH.  IF YOU WERE, DO YOU REMEMBER IN OTHER=20 NAMES.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;   =20 JOHN FORD
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;   =20 359TH REPRE.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880-- From ray.cossey@virgin.net Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:52:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:52:25 +0100 From: ray cossey ray.cossey@virgin.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made = by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair. Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue = with him concerning that which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of = the British and their attitude towards their responsibilities. Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of = possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = as it was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = eventually pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it = took us many decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long = years of war. Sinclair states that the British, in common with other = countries, has not paid back even the interest on the loans extended to = them by the USA. In respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong = and he would never be able to make such a statement today. =20 You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many = years ago and is a long, long way out of date. I thought I'd just put = the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = badly of my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = together. Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of = Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = don't forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth.=20 Regards Ray Cossey Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast = made by=20 a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
 
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = issue with=20 him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = which=20 would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the = British=20 and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
 
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = of =20 possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = as it was=20 almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = eventually pay=20 back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = decades to do=20 so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  Sinclair = states=20 that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid back even = the=20 interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect of my = country,=20 Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make such a = statement=20 today. 
 
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = many years=20 ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd just put = the record=20 straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my = country,=20 especially after all the suffering we went through together.
 
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = the text=20 of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = don't=20 forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. =
 
Regards
 
Ray Cossey
Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc.
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960-- From ray.cossey@virgin.net Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:58:27 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:58:27 +0100 From: ray cossey ray.cossey@virgin.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: America America This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made = by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair. Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue = with him concerning that which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of = the British and their attitude towards their responsibilities. Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of = possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = as it was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = eventually pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it = took us many decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long = years of war. Sinclair states that the British, in common with other = countries, has not paid back even the interest on the loans extended to = them by the USA. In respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong = and he would never be able to make such a statement today. =20 You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many = years ago and is a long, long way out of date. I thought I'd just put = the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = badly of my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = together. Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of = Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = don't forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth.=20 =20 Regards Ray Cossey Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 


 
K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast = made by=20 a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
 
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = issue with=20 him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = which=20 would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the = British=20 and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
 
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = of =20 possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = as it was=20 almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = eventually pay=20 back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = decades to do=20 so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  Sinclair = states=20 that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid back even = the=20 interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect of my = country,=20 Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make such a = statement=20 today. 
 
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = many years=20 ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd just put = the record=20 straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my = country,=20 especially after all the suffering we went through together.
 
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = the text=20 of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = don't=20 forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. =
 
Regards
 
Ray Cossey
Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc.
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380-- From IBSPEC@aol.com Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:06:43 EDT Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:06:43 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America agreed ,it was given long years ago.spec From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:14:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:14:34 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ray!  Thanks for setting the recod straight!  So many countries are basing America these days, especially the French and I know you can appreciate that, that I thought some of the veterans might enjoy what Sinclair wrote.  In no way was my message intended to offend you or the British - YOU WERE OUR ALLIES AND STILL ARE!!  Sorry to have ruffled your fathers!  It was not my intent. Respectfully, Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of ray cossey Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 12:03 PM To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.   Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue with him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the acceptance of which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the British and their attitude towards their responsibilities.   Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of  possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair as it was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did eventually pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  Sinclair states that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid back even the interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make such a statement today.    You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many years ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd just put the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my country, especially after all the suffering we went through together.   Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please don't forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth.   Regards   Ray Cossey Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Ray!  Thanks for setting the recod straight!  So many = countries are=20 basing America these days, especially the French and I know you can = appreciate=20 that, that I thought some of the veterans might enjoy what Sinclair = wrote. =20 In no way was my message intended to offend you or the British - YOU = WERE OUR=20 ALLIES AND STILL ARE!!  Sorry to have ruffled your fathers!  = It was=20 not my intent.
Respectfully,
Kevin=20 M. Pearson
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of ray cossey
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 = 12:03=20 PM
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: = [303rd-Talk]=20 America America

K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a = broadcast made=20 by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
 
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = issue=20 with him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the = acceptance of=20 which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression = of the=20 British and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
 
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = of =20 possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = as it=20 was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = eventually=20 pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = decades=20 to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  = Sinclair=20 states that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid = back=20 even the interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect = of my=20 country, Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make = such a=20 statement today. 
 
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = many=20 years ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd = just put=20 the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = badly of=20 my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = together.
 
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = the text=20 of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, = please don't=20 forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. =
 
Regards
 
Ray Cossey
Honorary Member - 303rd BG = Assoc.
------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460-- From armfield@dockpoint.net Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:37:32 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:37:32 -0400 From: John and Anne armfield@dockpoint.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFFCA8.56BB8B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all John Armfield here. Proud member 303rd BGA.... 360th Sqdn. Pilot. Assigned Molesworth Nov.44 thru mid=20 April 45. Attended and thoroughly enjoyed=20 'Return To Molesworth 2000"=20 Fantastic website,Gary. Many thanks. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFFCA8.56BB8B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
John Armfield here. Proud member 303rd = BGA....
360th Sqdn. Pilot. Assigned Molesworth Nov.44 = thru mid=20
April 45.  Attended and thoroughly enjoyed =
'Return To Molesworth 2000"
Fantastic  website,Gary. Many = thanks.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFFCA8.56BB8B60-- From EISENCOL@aol.com Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:12:43 EDT Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:12:43 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America WELL SAID !!!!!!! BILL E From glm@xxxx.com Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:52:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:52:02 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xxxx.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] test please ignore.... test - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From MSargeM@aol.com Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:42:03 EDT Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:42:03 EDT From: MSargeM@aol.com MSargeM@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #5 - 13 msgs HI John Ford. I have an original set of ordes Sqdn Order No. 21. Dtd 6 July 1943. If this would help you I can send you a copy. Some Names are: Sid Guthrie, Bryant Mintz, Buford Pafford, Msgt Peterson, Victor Cozza, Lester HansenClarence Kennison and many others are on this list. Some of the orginal ones were sent to England in a group made up out of the 303rd. They were sent to Polebrook and the to Corsica where the were caught on the ground and were pretty well beaten up. Anyway nice to hear from you and let me know if you want the orders. Mort Moon From glm@xmission.com Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:28:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:28:33 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - Bud Klint Bud, If you get this, please reply to the message. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Theklints@email.msn.com Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:31:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:31:53 -0500 From: Wilbur Klint Theklints@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Signing on This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFD92.3E2492A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I am Wilbur "Bud" Klint, Pilot, 427BS, Molesworth, Aug. '43 - Mar. > '44. Former Editor Hell's Angels Newsletter and past Pres. 303rd BGA. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFD92.3E2492A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> I am Wilbur "Bud" Klint, Pilot, = 427BS,=20 Molesworth, Aug. '43 - Mar.
> '44.  Former Editor Hell's = Angels=20 Newsletter and past Pres. 303rd BGA.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFD92.3E2492A0-- From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:32:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:32:29 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #5 - 13 msgs My name is Lloyd Grant. I am an associate member of the 303rd BG. My dad flew as a navigator in the 427th SQ. His original plane was "Joe BTFSPLK II" commanded by Don Stockton. Thank you Gary and all involved for this wonderful venue of informtion and communication. Certainly a labour of love, and definately a job well done. I am proud of my association with the group and thankful for the courtesy, understanding , and respect that you all have given unselfishly. Continued best wishes, Lloyd. 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Super Job by Gary (lancestoner) > 2. Re: Super Job by Gary (Gary Moncur) > 3. Re: Intros, Gordy Alton (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 4. [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] (Rick Hardin) > 5. Re: [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 6. Re: America, America (CDouglasN@aol.com) > 7. Vox Pop (Gordon Alton) > 8. Re: Hi Fellas: (Hydeho13@aol.com) > 9. ORGINAL CADRE (JOHN W. FORD) > 10. America America (ray cossey) > 11. Fw: America America (ray cossey) > 12. Re: America America (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 13. RE: America America (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "lancestoner" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:10:21 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0" > Reply-To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Super Job by Gary > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi to all 303rd BGA(H), > > Gary has done an awsome job with the talk forum as he does in all things = > 303rd. > > In reply to his hope to fly in a 17, I was lucky enough to fly for 30 = > minutes in the daylight with no one shooting at me on the ALUMINUM = > OVERCAST. I will try to relate my feelings at the reunion to all. > > Will see Gary, Susan and ALL in San Diego. > > Thanks again Gary. > > Lance Stoner > Relative Representative 303rd BGA(H) > > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Hi to all 303rd BGA(H),
>
 
>
Gary has done an awsome job with the = > talk forum=20 > as he does in all things 303rd.
>
 
>
In reply to his hope to fly in a 17, = > I was lucky=20 > enough to fly for 30 minutes in the daylight with no one shooting at me = > on the=20 > ALUMINUM OVERCAST. I will try to relate my feelings at  the reunion = > to=20 > all.
>
 
>
Will see Gary, Susan and ALL in San=20 > Diego.
>
 
>
Thanks again Gary.
>
 
>
Lance Stoner
>
Relative Representative 303rd=20 > BGA(H)
> > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFFBB1.76EBA0C0-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:09:48 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Super Job by Gary > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Lance, > Thanks for the comments. I live midway between SLC International > airport and SLC Airport #2, almost on the outer marker for SLC. > For several years the CAF would have an airshow at Airport #2 > each year and would bring in WWII planes. SLC International > changed the rules on their airspace, so the airshows pretty much > stopped about 10 years ago. I saw Sentimental Journey several > times during that time. Each morning of the airshow, they would > have a "dawn partol" with the B-17, a B-25 and 6 or 8 T-6s flying > formation right over my house. We could hear the radial engines > coming and we'd all run outside and watch. > What a sound! It was like a magnet. I'd jump in the car and follow > them back to the airport and spend the day there. > > Someday..... > > We look forward to seeing you ALL in San Diego. > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:29:34 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Intros, Gordy Alton > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > yup from this virginian. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:43:37 -0700 > From: Rick Hardin > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] > > --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined > Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit > > > > --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w) > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 > Content-Disposition: inline > > Return-path: > Received: from aello.DCO.PIMA.EDU by pimacc.pima.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #16431) > id <01JSGNAC5OR498BR1C@pimacc.pima.edu>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:23:06 -0700 > Received: from aello.dco.pima.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by aello.dco.pima.edu (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11346 for > ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:22:32 -0700 (MST) > Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) > by aello.dco.pima.edu (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11321 for > ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:21:54 -0700 (MST) > Received: from [204.228.149.14] (helo=XMission) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp > (Exim 3.03 #3) id 13JlLp-0006MG-00 for rhardin@pimacc.pima.edu; Tue, > 01 Aug 2000 17:21:34 -0600 > Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:20:43 -0700 > From: Gary Moncur > Subject: Re: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode) > In-reply-to: <39875997.727B5448@pimacc.pima.edu> > To: Rick Hardin > Reply-to: glm@xmission.com > Message-id: <398706EB.6795.14B08DD@localhost> > Organization: 303rd BGA > MIME-version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) > Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ)" > Priority: normal > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > > --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > ****************** Virus Scan Message (on aello.dco.pima.edu) > > noname is scanned and no virus found ( ) > ********************************************************* > > --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Rick, > You sent this to the admin address rather than > 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com so it didn't make it to the list. Please > resend it to the list. > > Glad you're here! > > > Hello, > > > > My name is T.H. "Rick" Hardin III and I am the son of Tom Hardin who > > was a B-17 pilot during W.W.II. I am a pilot for the Pima County > > Sheriff's Office in Tucson, AZ where my primary duty is to transport > > prisoners on nationwide fugitive extradition warrants. I am also > > adjunct faculty for the Public Safety and Emergency Services Institute > > at Pima Community College. > > > > Thanks and keep up the good work. > > > > Rick Hardin > > > > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com wrote: > > > > > Welcome to the 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com mailing list! We're glad you > > > joined. Please send a short message and introduce yourself. > > > > > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > > > > > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > General information about the mailing list is at: > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > > > If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch > > > to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your > > > subscription page at: > > > > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/options/303rd-talk/rhardin@pimacc.pi > > > ma.edu > > > > > > You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message > > > to: > > > > > > 303rd-Talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > > > > > with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the > > > quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. > > > > > > You must know your password to change your options (including > > > changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: > > > > > > Hardin4 > > > > > > If you forget your password, don't worry, you will receive a monthly > > > reminder telling you what all your 303rdBGA.com mailing list > > > passwords are, and how to unsubscribe or change your options. There > > > is also a button on your options page that will email your current > > > password to you. > > > > > > You may also have your password mailed to you automatically off of > > > the Web page noted above. > > > > > > > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > --Boundary (ID uezuahBNSrd6YAwCsnnzrQ)-- > > --Boundary (ID rfH0QAHk8dqHtG1rwFNp2w)-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:01:22 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] [Fwd: Welcome to the "303rd-Talk" mailing list (Digest mode)] > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > rick hardin. noting pima college. have a friend at that college who moved > from univ. of richmon ,va. college to that school couple years ago ,involved > with human resources people. chjeers. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: CDouglasN@aol.com > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:16:41 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] America, America > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I'd just like to let everyone know of an upcoming B-17 flight simulator due > to release sometime between fall and xmas of this year. Its called "B-17 > Flying Fortress II, The Mighty Eighth" Its being published by Hasbro > Interactive and developed by Wayward Design Studios in Bristol, UK. It looks > to be an amazing sim, as crew management is the key to success. For once a > sim is coming out that is about the crew and not just the machine. > > Here is a link to the fan site called Bombs Away. It has all the info you > could ever want to know, including screenshots and movies of the game in > action. Plus, the developers tend to lurk around in the forums answering > questions about the game and things like that. > > http://www.bombs-away.net > > Here is a link to the official game site. Although it is rather sparse, and > seems to be a work in progress, it does have a basic rundown of the features > planning to be included with the game. > > http://www.b17flyingfortress.com > > This game looks to be a winner. Check it out! > > Charles > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:38:15 -0700 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Vox Pop > > Hello 303rd, > This is my first post, other than my intro. I do a little plane > research, as you'll find out, and here is an inquiry I would like a > little help with. > I am trying to nail down some facts on a few different planes, and > here is one, or two, of them. The plane is called "Vox Pop". There > were a couple of planes by this name, and a couple with a ' II ' after > them. The ones I am concerned with flew with the 94BG, the 91BG, and > the 303BG. > > The first plane is serial #42-37767. It was assigned to the 332nd > BS of the 94th BG on the 4th of Oct., 1943. It was transferred to the > 401st BS of the 91st BG on the 5th of Nov., 1943. This plane crash > landed at Cambridge on the 20th of Dec., 1943. The MACR is 1886. > > The second plane is serial #43-38767. It was assigned to the 332nd > BS of the 94th BG on the 4th of Oct., 1944. It was transferred to the > 359th BS of the 303rd BG on the 23 of Nov., 1944. It went missing in > action over Hamburg on the 20th of Mar, 1945. Pilot may have been > Moors, hit by enemy aircraft, 5 KIA, 3 POW. MACR 13570. > > If anyone has any more info on these planes, please post it here, > or to me at gordy@saltspring.com . I will let the talk list in on any > findings. These planes were sometimes mixed up and taken for each > other, ser. #s were swapped, dates mixed up, etc. I just want to clear > up the records, for myself and the groups involved. > Thanks, > Gordy. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: Hydeho13@aol.com > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:40:55 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Hi Fellas: > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: "JOHN W. FORD" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:26:54 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] ORGINAL CADRE > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > MORTON MOON - WAS YOU IN THE ORGINAL CADRE FROM THE 43RD BOMB GP, 64TH = > BOMB SQ. THAT FORMED THE 359TH BOMB SQ. AT BOISE IN JAN, 1942. BUFORD = > PAFFORD, MARTIN BRUCHER, MARTIN YANIGA, FLETCHER HELTON, RAYMOND DUSMAN = > ARE THE ONES I REMEMBER. THEY WERE ABOUT 14 OF US IN THAT CADRE THAT = > FORMED THE 359TH. IF YOU WERE, DO YOU REMEMBER IN OTHER NAMES. > > = > JOHN FORD > = > 359TH REPRE. > =20 > > ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
MORTON MOON - WAS YOU IN THE ORGINAL CADRE FROM THE = > 43RD BOMB=20 > GP, 64TH BOMB SQ. THAT FORMED THE 359TH BOMB SQ. AT BOISE IN JAN, = > 1942. =20 > BUFORD PAFFORD, MARTIN BRUCHER, MARTIN YANIGA, FLETCHER HELTON, RAYMOND = > DUSMAN=20 > ARE THE ONES I REMEMBER.  THEY WERE ABOUT 14 OF US IN THAT CADRE = > THAT=20 > FORMED THE 359TH.  IF YOU WERE, DO YOU REMEMBER IN OTHER=20 > NAMES.
>
 
>
size=3D2>          &nbs= > p;            = > ;            = >             &= > nbsp;           &n= > bsp;           &nb= > sp;           &nbs= > p;   =20 > JOHN FORD
>
size=3D2>          &nbs= > p;            = > ;            = >             &= > nbsp;           &n= > bsp;           &nb= > sp;           &nbs= > p;   =20 > 359TH REPRE.
>
size=3D2>          &nbs= > p;            = > ;            = >             &= > nbsp;           &n= > bsp;        =20 >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFC5B.6A576880-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "ray cossey" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:52:25 +0100 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made = > by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair. > > Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue = > with him concerning that which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = > which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of = > the British and their attitude towards their responsibilities. > > Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of = > possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = > as it was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = > eventually pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it = > took us many decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long = > years of war. Sinclair states that the British, in common with other = > countries, has not paid back even the interest on the loans extended to = > them by the USA. In respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong = > and he would never be able to make such a statement today. =20 > > You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many = > years ago and is a long, long way out of date. I thought I'd just put = > the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = > badly of my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = > together. > > Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of = > Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = > don't forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth.=20 > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast = > made by=20 > a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
>
 
>
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = > issue with=20 > him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = > which=20 > would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the = > British=20 > and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
>
 
>
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = > of =20 > possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = > as it was=20 > almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = > eventually pay=20 > back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = > decades to do=20 > so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  Sinclair = > states=20 > that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid back even = > the=20 > interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect of my = > country,=20 > Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make such a = > statement=20 > today. 
>
 
>
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = > many years=20 > ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd just put = > the record=20 > straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my = > country,=20 > especially after all the suffering we went through together.
>
 
>
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = > the text=20 > of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = > don't=20 > forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. = >
>
 
>
Regards
>
 
>
Ray Cossey
>
Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc.
> > ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFFCAA.6AC99960-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: "ray cossey" > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:58:27 +0100 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fw: America America > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made = > by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair. > > Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue = > with him concerning that which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = > which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of = > the British and their attitude towards their responsibilities. > > Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of = > possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = > as it was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = > eventually pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it = > took us many decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long = > years of war. Sinclair states that the British, in common with other = > countries, has not paid back even the interest on the loans extended to = > them by the USA. In respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong = > and he would never be able to make such a statement today. =20 > > You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many = > years ago and is a long, long way out of date. I thought I'd just put = > the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = > badly of my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = > together. > > Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of = > Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = > don't forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth.=20 > =20 > Regards > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> HTML//EN"> > > > >
 
>


 
>
K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast = > made by=20 > a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
>
 
>
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = > issue with=20 > him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the acceptance of = > which=20 > would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the = > British=20 > and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
>
 
>
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = > of =20 > possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = > as it was=20 > almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = > eventually pay=20 > back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = > decades to do=20 > so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  Sinclair = > states=20 > that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid back even = > the=20 > interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect of my = > country,=20 > Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make such a = > statement=20 > today. 
>
 
>
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = > many years=20 > ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd just put = > the record=20 > straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my = > country,=20 > especially after all the suffering we went through together.
>
 
>
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = > the text=20 > of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please = > don't=20 > forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. = >
>
 
>
Regards
>
 
>
Ray Cossey
>
Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc.
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFFCAB.42346380-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:06:43 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] America America > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > agreed ,it was given long years ago.spec > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] America America > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:14:34 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Hi Ray! Thanks for setting the recod straight! So many countries are > basing America these days, especially the French and I know you can > appreciate that, that I thought some of the veterans might enjoy what > Sinclair wrote. In no way was my message intended to offend you or the > British - YOU WERE OUR ALLIES AND STILL ARE!! Sorry to have ruffled your > fathers! It was not my intent. > Respectfully, > Kevin M. Pearson > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On > Behalf Of ray cossey > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 12:03 PM > To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] America America > > K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a broadcast made by a > Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair. > > Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take issue with > him concerning that which was totally wrong and the acceptance of which > would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression of the > British and their attitude towards their responsibilities. > > Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 of possibly > hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair as it was > almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did eventually > pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many > decades to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war. > Sinclair states that the British, in common with other countries, has not > paid back even the interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In > respect of my country, Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able > to make such a statement today. > > You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made many years > ago and is a long, long way out of date. I thought I'd just put the record > straight as I would hate my many American friends to think badly of my > country, especially after all the suffering we went through together. > > Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward the text of > Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, please don't > forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. > > Regards > > Ray Cossey > Honorary Member - 303rd BG Assoc. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > >
class=3D610250618-02082000>Hi=20 > Ray!  Thanks for setting the recod straight!  So many = > countries are=20 > basing America these days, especially the French and I know you can = > appreciate=20 > that, that I thought some of the veterans might enjoy what Sinclair = > wrote. =20 > In no way was my message intended to offend you or the British - YOU = > WERE OUR=20 > ALLIES AND STILL ARE!!  Sorry to have ruffled your fathers!  = > It was=20 > not my intent.
>
class=3D610250618-02082000>Respectfully,
>
class=3D610250618-02082000>Kevin=20 > M. Pearson
>
>
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----
From:=20 > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 > Behalf Of ray cossey
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 = > 12:03=20 > PM
To: 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: = > [303rd-Talk]=20 > America America

>
K Pearson, in his e-mail of 1 August, gave the text of a = > broadcast made=20 > by a Canadian journalist called Gordon Sinclair.
>
 
>
Whilst I agree with most of what Mr Sinclair states, I must take = > issue=20 > with him concerning that  which was totally wrong and the = > acceptance of=20 > which would leave American listeners with a totally wrong impression = > of the=20 > British and their attitude towards their responsibilities.
>
 
>
Yes, America did make loans to the British during World War 2 = > of =20 > possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (hardly billions, Mr Sinclair = > as it=20 > was almost 60 years ago), but I can assure Mr Sinclair that we did = > eventually=20 > pay back the agreed portion of these loans. Of course, it took us many = > decades=20 > to do so, as we got back on our feet after 6 long years of war.  = > Sinclair=20 > states that the British, in common with other countries, has not paid = > back=20 > even the interest on the loans extended to them by the USA. In respect = > of my=20 > country, Great Britain, he is wrong and he would never be able to make = > such a=20 > statement today. 
>
 
>
You see, the fact of the matter is that this broadcast was made = > many=20 > years ago and is a long, long way out of date.  I thought I'd = > just put=20 > the record straight as I would hate my many American friends to think = > badly of=20 > my country, especially after all the suffering we went through = > together.
>
 
>
Incidentally if, as K Pearson properly suggests, you forward = > the text=20 > of Sinclair's broadcast to those of your friends on the internet, = > please don't=20 > forget to add my response above, so as to balance out the truth. = >
>
 
>
Regards
>
 
>
Ray Cossey
>
Honorary Member - 303rd BG = > Assoc.
> > ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BFFC82.E9FA3460-- > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest_______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From glm@xmission.com Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:00:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:00:14 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd Grant Lloyd, Thanks for the comments. This is a good forum to ask questions of the experts. There are 65 members so far. Hopefully it will continue to grow. Regards, > My name is Lloyd Grant. I am an associate member of the 303rd BG. My > dad flew as a navigator in the 427th SQ. His original plane was "Joe > BTFSPLK II" commanded by Don Stockton. Thank you Gary and all > involved for this wonderful venue of informtion and communication. > Certainly a labour of love, and definately a job well done. I am > proud of my association with the group and thankful for the courtesy, > understanding , and respect that you all have given unselfishly. > Continued best wishes, Lloyd. > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From JJENKINSR@cs.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 01:15:08 EDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 01:15:08 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction My name is John A. Jenkins. My Dad flew as a Navigator with the 303rd Bomb Group in CAPT George Newton's crew. Both Dad and I attended the recent dedication of the permanent Memorial to the 303rd at RAF Molesworth and the ceremonies at the American Cemetery at Madingley. Both events were extremely moving. The 303rd is a military unit with a remarkable litany of accomplishments. I do not mention this casually, as I recently retired from the Navy after 21 years of service. While I was growing up, Dad would occasionally relate some anecdote concerning one of the members of the Newton crew. There were many memorable events as the crew trained together for some length of time prior to being deployed to England. To this day I still enjoy hearing these stories. I consider it an honor and a privilege to be associated with this unit. Also, many thanks to Gary for maintaining a web site that I believe is unsurpassed. Regards, John From Theklints@email.msn.com Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:42:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:42:33 -0500 From: Wilbur Klint Theklints@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - Bud Klint GOT IT! Hope everything is OK now. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Moncur To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 6:28 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - Bud Klint > Bud, If you get this, please reply to the message. > > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:12:16 EDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:12:16 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Signing on bud ,pleased to see your name online. i was a late one to know about assn. i appreciate greatly and gratefully your and all others living and deceased ,who originated the assn. and still energize it's decemination thru our glorious informative website and other ways that perpetuates this great true story of our freedoms. what would this economy today have been without our WWII veterans insistence for the g.i bills. education ,housing ,etc? cheers to all and best wishes for continuing appreciated living bud. ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:15:12 EDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:15:12 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #5 - 13 msgs lloyd grant i appreciate you being an associate member proud of your da's committment that provided us freedom. urge others ,such as friends of the 303rdbga to join us to help keep this great true story alive. ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:19:38 EDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:19:38 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction john good to read your email. are you a member associate or friends of the 303rdbga memberof our ass? if not do join us as we need your enthusiastic interest to keep this great true story of our freedom alive. see membership info at top of our website. cheers.ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:09:47 EDT Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:09:47 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th Air Force Greetings greg ,thanks for your efforts in your assn. you really should be a friend of the 303rdbga member. do join us as we need persons to keep this great true story alive ,as we are diminishing as i type. do join us now and urge others likewise. ibspec@aol.com From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Canadian newsrelease Ray, as you suggested, we forwarded your rebuttal to all our friends. Fair is Fair. When writing to them, we said how kind and helpful you and Teresa were when we visited England five years ago, and how glad we were to see you on our visit in May. As Americans, we do get dumped on . Reading the newsrelease gave us a lift, but you made valid points on behalf of England. Again, thank you for all you do for the 303rd. Lou and Rosemary Grandwilliams From jtrojan@pdq.net Sun, 6 Aug 2000 10:47:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 10:47:26 -0500 From: Joseph Trojan jtrojan@pdq.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF (Ret.). I was in the original 303rd that flew to Molesworth in Sept '42. My = Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew Lyle. Our air = craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St Nazarre) = Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were Killed. I = spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force = until retirement (Nov 1971.). My wife died in 1985. I live alone.at = 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089. My Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax = 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF = (Ret.).
I was  in the original 303rd that flew to = Molesworth in=20 Sept '42. My Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew = Lyle. Our=20 air craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St = Nazarre)=20 Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were = Killed.  I=20 spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = his 3rd=20 Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force until=20 retirement    (Nov 1971.).  My wife died in = 1985.  I=20 live alone.at 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089.  My Phone is 281 = -481-=20 0394 Fax 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700-- From glm@xmission.com Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:55:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:55:44 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Murray Stacks If you've ever flown into Salt Lake City, you probably noticed the Murray Stacks, about 8 miles southeast of the airport. The were two very old smokestacks that were part of the skyline for almost 100 years and were a navigation point for private pilots. The towers were 455 feet and 295 feet tall. This morning the stacks were dynamited to make way for new construction. My family and I went to watch the historic event. Some shots of the stacks coming down are here: http://www.xmission.com/~glm/murraystacks.html More is here: http://www.sltrib.com/2000/aug/08052000/utah/9630.htm Photos were taken with a Canon S-100 Digital Elph camera. Salt Lake City will never look the same. Regards, - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From IBSPEC@aol.com Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:58:56 EDT Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:58:56 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction glad you are here to tell us your story of how your dedication to serving along with others living and deceased all of which provided the freedom we have today, that too many of our citizens do not have an appreciation. we need to urge all our kinfolk and families to view this website and join in the various categories and thereby help keep this great true story alive. others reading this are urged to enlist memberships into this assn. the WWII memorial must be built as recommended as the efforts in WWII far exceed the invovement of objectors ,who cite lesser reasons for monuments. cheers to all as i today celebrate my 80th birthday and thank my god for allowing me to return whole to my home fromWWII. ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:06:55 EDT Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:06:55 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Murray Stacks gary .appreciated news. ibspec@aol.com From TColw10607@aol.com Sun, 6 Aug 2000 15:37:05 EDT Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 15:37:05 EDT From: TColw10607@aol.com TColw10607@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello Hello from south Louisiana, I am Tom Colwell (exafbrait), with a life long interest in World War II. My interest is in Molesworth Airdrome, the layout, the control tower and supporting buildings. If enough information, photo's etc., can be procured maybe some models can be built and donated. Is it possible? From Theklints@email.msn.com Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:45:58 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:45:58 -0500 From: Wilbur Klint Theklints@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome. We're glad to have you. Hope to meet you in San Diego next = month. We need all the Texans we can get!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joseph Trojan=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:47 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF (Ret.). I was in the original 303rd that flew to Molesworth in Sept '42. My = Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew Lyle. Our air = craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St Nazarre) = Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were Killed. I = spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force = until retirement (Nov 1971.). My wife died in 1985. I live alone.at = 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089. My Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax = 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome.  We're glad to have = you.  Hope=20 to meet you in San Diego next month.  We need all the Texans we can = get!!!
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Joseph = Trojan=20
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 = 10:47=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Introduction

I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF = (Ret.).
I was  in the original 303rd that flew to = Molesworth in=20 Sept '42. My Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew = Lyle.=20 Our air craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my = 21sMission, (St=20 Nazarre) Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were = Killed.  I spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was = Liberated by=20 Patton and his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in = the Air=20 Force until retirement    (Nov 1971.).  My wife = died in=20 1985.  I live alone.at 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089.  = My=20 Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net. =
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060-- From JJENKINSR@cs.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 05:40:54 EDT Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 05:40:54 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Response to Introduction Question I joined the 303rdBGA several months ago as a family member. I also make a small annual donation to the 303rd in memory of 2LT Raley and the other members of 1LT Cureton's crew who were KIA on the 21 Nov 1944 mission to Merseburg. Additionally, as a result of the information contained in the 303rd web site a nephew of 2LT Raley contacted me concerning the fate of Raley. Somehow the family had not been completely informed of what happened to most of Cureton's crew that day. Once again, many thanks to Gary Moncur for maintaining this site. It must truly be a labor of love. John A. Jenkins From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:21:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:21:49 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello If you want to build a model of Molesworth, contact: Brian S. McGuire Senior Systems analyst BETAC Corporation HQ USEUCOM Joint analyisis Center PSC 46, Box 404 APO 09469 e-mail: jac@betac.com Brian is the unofficial historian of Molesworth and I am sure he could provide you with drawings, aerials, etc. of the base from the war. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of TColw10607@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 2:43 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello Hello from south Louisiana, I am Tom Colwell (exafbrait), with a life long interest in World War II. My interest is in Molesworth Airdrome, the layout, the control tower and supporting buildings. If enough information, photo's etc., can be procured maybe some models can be built and donated. Is it possible? _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From EISENCOL@aol.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:14:29 EDT Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:14:29 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ALL THE FLORIDIANS TOO??? WILL SEE YOU GUYS IN SD. BEST BILL/MARY From EISENCOL@aol.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:15:52 EDT Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:15:52 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Response to Introduction Question I SECOND THAT !!!!! BILL E From owen26@tucomm.net Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:09:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:09:06 -0500 From: Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My name is Bill Owen. I joined the 303rd as a family member. My brother, = S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the Joseph F. Palmer crew (360th = Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE AVENGER on a mission = to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four became = POW's. I have found much information for my family since I discovered = the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the = name of their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler, = Texas. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My name is Bill Owen. I joined the = 303rd as a=20 family member. My brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the = Joseph F.=20 Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE = AVENGER on=20 a mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four = became=20 POW's. I have found much information for my family since I discovered = the 303rd=20 web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the name of = their=20 aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler,=20 Texas.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0-- From gordy@saltspring.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:07:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:07:15 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, Welcome to the list. I am Gordy Alton, son of Donald M. Alton, 323dBS, = 91BG. We both live in Canada, he in Alberta, myself in BC. There are = sure some interesting people coming on to this list, and you are no = exception, I believe. I really admire some of you folks who may be a = little older than the rest of us, for going forth with internet affairs. = My own father, Don, would not be able to do it, I don't think. I act as = a go between for him and some of his fellow BG members and kriegies (he = was in Stalag XVIIB). So, it is a pleasure to meet you, and the others = of this group who are not scared of computers or keyboards, and put = stuff out there for my generation. Thanks. Gordy. NB. I have attached a page I find helpful for searching for records of = WWII personnel. Most of it is from the NARA. You and the rest may find = it helpful, Bill. G. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Owen=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction My name is Bill Owen. I joined the 303rd as a family member. My = brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the Joseph F. Palmer crew = (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE AVENGER on a = mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four = became POW's. I have found much information for my family since I = discovered the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even = know the name of their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in = Tyler, Texas. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
Welcome to the list. I am Gordy Alton, = son of=20 Donald M. Alton, 323dBS, 91BG. We both live in Canada, he in Alberta, = myself in=20 BC. There are sure some interesting people coming on to this list, and = you are=20 no exception, I believe. I really admire some of you folks who may be a = little=20 older than the rest of us, for going forth with internet affairs. My own = father,=20 Don, would not be able to do it, I don't think. I act as a go between = for him=20 and some of his fellow BG members and kriegies (he was in Stalag XVIIB). = So, it=20 is a pleasure to meet you, and the others of this group who are not = scared of=20 computers or keyboards, and put stuff out there for my = generation.
Thanks.
Gordy.
 
NB. I have attached a page I find = helpful for=20 searching for records of WWII personnel. Most of it is from the NARA. = You and=20 the rest may find it helpful, Bill.
G.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill = Owen=20
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 = 9:09=20 AM
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = introduction

My name is Bill Owen. I joined the = 303rd as a=20 family member. My brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the = Joseph F.=20 Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE = AVENGER=20 on a mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other = four=20 became POW's. I have found much information for my family since I = discovered=20 the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the = name of=20 their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler,=20 Texas.
------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Records Search.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Records Search.eml" Received: from b4b8p0 (ss65.imagenisp.com [204.244.138.86]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id PSKWJ7A0; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <00ed01bff71f$a3f43280$568af4cc@b4b8p0> From: "Gordon Alton" To: "Gordon Alton" Subject: Records Search Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:36:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Morning reports and unit rosters are created by military organizations as part of their personnel and payroll functions. These records are used by the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) to verify events or assignments which may not be documented in an individual's Official Military Personnel File (OMPF). This is especially important when trying to reconstruct service information when the OMPF has been damaged or destroyed in the fire at NPRC in 1973. A brief explanation of both types of records and the date span of our collections is listed below. MORNING REPORTS are created each morning, as the name implies. They are an "exception based" system, only containing information on those individuals who are not "Present and Accounted for". Among the reasons for being listed on a morning report are: Promotion or demotion Being killed, wounded or missing in action Being assigned to a unit, or leaving a unit Going to a hospital for treatment, or to another activity for training In order to verify that a particular action occurred, we must be provided with the exact unit of assignment ("Company A, 1st Battalion, 116th Infantry Regiment"), a description of the action ("I was wounded and sent to a hospital") and an approximate date ("June, 1944"). Without this type of information, we may be unable to perform a search. Our collection of morning reports covers the following: ARMY AIR FORCE November 1, 1912 to 1974 September 1947 to June 30, 1966 UNIT ROSTERS are created monthly, quarterly or semi-annually. During certain time periods, separate rosters were created for officers and enlisted personnel. At other times, consolidated rosters listed both officers and enlisted personnel. Some units created rosters only for enlisted personnel. The rosters typically list the members of a particular unit for the last day of the month in which the roster was created. NPRC stores unit rosters for the Army only, for the same years as the morning reports, 1912 to 1974. (This includes rosters of units of the Army Air Forces prior to September 1947; however, no Air Force unit rosters are available after that date.) Unfortunately, the rosters for the years 1944, 1945 and 1946 were destroyed in the 1970's; no other source for this type of information for these years exists at this center. You may wish to contact an "Alumni Organization" in order to obtain information concerning members of specific units. Please see our Helpful Links page. NOTE: Neither morning reports nor unit rosters contain historical information concerning battles or engagements. Records that contain this type of information may be available at one of the following: U.S. Army Center of Military History 103 3rd Avenue Fort Lesley J. McNair, DC 20319-5058 U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency 600 Chenault Circle Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424 National Archives and Records Administration Modern Military Records - NWCTM 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 20740-6001 SUBMITTING REQUESTS FOR MORNING REPORTS OR ROSTERS: Requests must be in writing and sent to the following address: National Personnel Records Center Military Personnel Records 9700 Page Avenue St. Louis, MO 63132-5100 You may use a Standard Form 180, Request Pertaining to Military Records, or, write a letter to the center. Specify the information needed and the purpose of the request. In order to conduct a search of morning reports and unit rosters we need as much of the following information as possible: units or outfits; complete organizational designation (company or battery, battalion, and regiment; squadron, group, and wing, etc.); geographical location (camp, base, and country). Searching morning reports and rosters can be quite time consuming. Please limit your request to a specific event or personnel action. We are not staffed or budgeted to perform searches of organizational records for research or reunion purposes as our main responsibility is to respond to requests from or on behalf of veterans who are seeking benefits due them under various veterans laws. SEARCH FEES: Depending on the number of searches required there may be a fee assessed. If that is the case, payment is required before the searches are undertaken. Fees are assessed for our time spent locating the records (at the rate of $13.25 per hour) and for any copies that are made (first 6 pages, $3.50; each additional page, $0.10), with a minimum charge of $8.30. A deposit of $8.30 is required before we begin the search.You will be billed for any additional costs. All remittances should be made payable to the National Personnel Records Center. REVIEW OF RECORDS BY YOURSELF OR A DESIGNATED REPRESENTATIVE: It is also possible for our staff to make the records available to you or your designated representative for review of the morning reports/rosters at our Center. If that is not possible, you may wish to contact the history department of one of the local universities for graduate students who may be available to conduct this research. Telephone numbers are listed below: Lindenwood University -- 314-916-7413 Maryville University of St. Louis -- 314-529-9454 St. Louis University -- 314-977-2910 Southern Illinois University (Edwardsville) -- 618-650-2414 University of MO - St. Louis -- 314-516-5681 Washington University -- 314-935-5450 If you or your designated representative decide to review the records, please notify us in advance of your visit so we can make the necessary arrangements. You will need to speak to the Customer Service Representative at 314-538-4020 to arrange for an appointment to visit our Research Room. OBTAINING RELEASE AUTHORIZATION FROM SERVICE BRANCH: If you wish to review these records in person, you will first need to write to one of the following offices to obtain the required authorization for access to the records: FOIA/PA Division USAISC-P (AS-QNS-OP-F) 7798 Cissna Road, Suite 205 Springfield, VA 22150-3166 Department of the Air Force Secretary of the Air Force (AAIA) Washington, DC 20330-1000 National Archives and Records Administration URL: http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprmrr.html webmaster@nara.gov Last updated: June 20, 2000 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260-- From glm@xmission.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:08 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Brian McGuire's email address Brian McGuire's new email address is: bmcguire@acsdefense-dc.com The betac one won't work anymore. > If you want to build a model of Molesworth, contact: > > Brian S. McGuire > Senior Systems analyst > BETAC Corporation > HQ USEUCOM > Joint analyisis Center > PSC 46, Box 404 > APO 09469 > e-mail: jac@betac.com - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From dwy@jps.net Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:22:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:22:35 -0700 From: dwy dwy@jps.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) My name is David Young and my late wife's father was Ralph E. Quint, the co-pilot of "My Yorkshire Dream" which was shot down on 6/29/44. My wife (Tawny) wasn't born untill 1/4/45 and she never knew her father. We had tried in 1970 to get in touch with the single survivor of that crew---Leslie Black-- but the only address that we had for him was his pre-war home and at that time there was no internet and we had no success in our search. We felt like it was a lost cause. Ten years later I found out about Keith Ferris and the research he did for his paintings. I wrote him a letter asking if he could help me and it worked. Through him we got in touch with Mr. Black and many other nice folks in the 303rd. BGA and have learned many things that we didn't think we could ever learn. We even met someone (Richard Johnson) who saw the plane hit by flak. My wife had been an associate member of the 303rdBGA since about 1987. I have now become a member in her place since she passed away late last year. If there is anyone out there who was aquainted with any member of the A.K. Roy crew I would like to hear from them. All my best to all of the brave heros. David Young From gordy@saltspring.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:27:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:27:09 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ABMC Home Page Bill, This page was put on another list I belong to, HeavyExtra, which is part of the HeavyBombers site on Topica. I searched out your brother's name, and there it came up, with all the following information. I hope I am not intruding too much into your life, but I thought you might want to check this out. The rest of you might be interested, too. Gordy. ******************** http://www.abmc.gov/ AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION Burl M. Owen Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army Air Forces 18109164 360th Bomber Squadron, 303rd Bomber Group, Heavy Entered the Service from: Texas Died: June 25, 1943 Buried at: Plot J Row 9 Grave 17 Netherlands American Cemetery Margraten, Netherlands Awards: Air Medal with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters From glm@xmission.com Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:44:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:44:55 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill of Sale for 8 Ball Mk II Jack Turkel just sent me a copy of the Bill of Sale from Boeing for B- 17F 41-24635 '8' Ball Mk II. I just put it on the photo page and thought you might find it interesting. The total cost was $314,109.00. The page is here: http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-4124635-billofsale.html Wonder what a B-17 sells for now? - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From owen26@tucomm.net Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:18:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:18:07 -0500 From: Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ABMC Home Page Gordy, thanks for your message. I already have that info but I do appreciate you taking time to send it to me. Best Wishes, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Alton To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk List <303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 6:27 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] ABMC Home Page > Bill, > This page was put on another list I belong to, HeavyExtra, which is > part of the HeavyBombers site on Topica. I searched out your brother's > name, and there it came up, with all the following information. I hope > I am not intruding too much into your life, but I thought you might > want to check this out. The rest of you might be interested, too. > Gordy. > ******************** > > http://www.abmc.gov/ > > > > AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION > > Burl M. Owen > Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army Air Forces > 18109164 > 360th Bomber Squadron, 303rd Bomber Group, Heavy > Entered the Service from: Texas > Died: June 25, 1943 > Buried at: Plot J Row 9 Grave 17 > Netherlands American Cemetery > Margraten, Netherlands > Awards: Air Medal with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From palidin@netzero.net Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:22:01 -0400 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:22:01 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #7 - 21 msgs Dear Col. Trojan, I saw your message here. Jay, you may live alone, but you will never be alone. Please stay in touch. Your experience and knowledge is invaluable, sir. Very best. Lloyd Grant. 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Lloyd Grant (Gary Moncur) > 2. Introduction (JJENKINSR@cs.com) > 3. Re: test - Bud Klint (Wilbur Klint) > 4. Re: Signing on (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 5. Re: Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #5 - 13 msgs (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 6. Re: Introduction (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 7. 8th Air Force Greetings (Pierce, Gregory S) > 8. Re: 8th Air Force Greetings (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 9. Canadian newsrelease (Louis Grandwilliams) > 10. Introduction (Joseph Trojan) > 11. Murray Stacks (Gary Moncur) > 12. Re: Introduction (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 13. Re: Murray Stacks (IBSPEC@aol.com) > 14. Hello (TColw10607@aol.com) > 15. Re: Introduction (Wilbur Klint) > 16. Re: Response to Introduction Question (JJENKINSR@cs.com) > 17. RE: Hello (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > 18. Re: Introduction (EISENCOL@aol.com) > 19. Re: Response to Introduction Question (EISENCOL@aol.com) > 20. introduction (Bill Owen) > 21. Re: introduction (Gordon Alton) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:00:14 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Lloyd Grant > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Lloyd, > Thanks for the comments. This is a good forum to ask questions > of the experts. There are 65 members so far. Hopefully it will > continue to grow. > > Regards, > > > My name is Lloyd Grant. I am an associate member of the 303rd BG. My > > dad flew as a navigator in the 427th SQ. His original plane was "Joe > > BTFSPLK II" commanded by Don Stockton. Thank you Gary and all > > involved for this wonderful venue of informtion and communication. > > Certainly a labour of love, and definately a job well done. I am > > proud of my association with the group and thankful for the courtesy, > > understanding , and respect that you all have given unselfishly. > > Continued best wishes, Lloyd. > > > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 01:15:08 EDT > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > > My name is John A. Jenkins. My Dad flew as a Navigator with the 303rd > Bomb Group in CAPT George Newton's crew. Both Dad and I attended the recent > dedication of the permanent Memorial to the 303rd at RAF Molesworth and the > ceremonies at the American Cemetery at Madingley. Both events were extremely > moving. > The 303rd is a military unit with a remarkable litany of accomplishments. > I do not mention this casually, as I recently retired from the Navy after 21 > years of service. > While I was growing up, Dad would occasionally relate some anecdote > concerning one of the members of the Newton crew. There were many memorable > events as the crew trained together for some length of time prior to being > deployed to England. To this day I still enjoy hearing these stories. > I consider it an honor and a privilege to be associated with this unit. > Also, many thanks to Gary for maintaining a web site that I believe is > unsurpassed. > > Regards, > > John > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Wilbur Klint" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] test - Bud Klint > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:42:33 -0500 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > GOT IT! Hope everything is OK now. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Moncur > To: <303rd-Talk@303rdbga.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 6:28 PM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] test - Bud Klint > > > Bud, If you get this, please reply to the message. > > > > > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > > http://www.303rdBGA.com > > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:12:16 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Signing on > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > bud ,pleased to see your name online. i was a late one to know about assn. i > appreciate greatly and gratefully your and all others living and deceased > ,who originated the assn. and still energize it's decemination thru our > glorious informative website and other ways that perpetuates this great true > story of our freedoms. what would this economy today have been without our > WWII veterans insistence for the g.i bills. education ,housing ,etc? cheers > to all and best wishes for continuing appreciated living bud. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:15:12 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #5 - 13 msgs > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > lloyd grant i appreciate you being an associate member proud of your da's > committment that provided us freedom. urge others ,such as friends of the > 303rdbga to join us to help keep this great true story alive. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:19:38 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > john good to read your email. are you a member associate or friends of the > 303rdbga memberof our ass? if not do join us as we need your enthusiastic > interest to keep this great true story of our freedom alive. see membership > info at top of our website. cheers.ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: "Pierce, Gregory S" > To: "'303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com'" <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 07:02:56 -0700 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] 8th Air Force Greetings > > Hello from Washington State, > > My name is Greg Pierce and I wanted to express to all the > 303rd BG veterans a BIG Thank you for the job you preformed > out of Molesworth during WWII. > > I am the current President of the 8th Air Force Historical Society > here in Washington State and have several 303rd veterans in the > group. One being Col. Mel Schulstad, who has contributed to the > chapter up here in a great way. > > God Bless you all. > > Greg Pierce > 8th AFHS, WA > > gregory.s.pierce@boeing.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:09:47 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 8th Air Force Greetings > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > greg ,thanks for your efforts in your assn. you really should be a friend of > the 303rdbga member. do join us as we need persons to keep this great true > story alive ,as we are diminishing as i type. do join us now and urge others > likewise. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net (Louis Grandwilliams) > Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:56:41 -0400 (EDT) > To: ray.cossey@virgin.net > Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Canadian newsrelease > > Ray, as you suggested, we forwarded your rebuttal to all our friends. > Fair is Fair. > > When writing to them, we said how kind and helpful you and Teresa were > when we visited England five years ago, and how glad we were to see you > on our visit in May. > > As Americans, we do get dumped on . Reading the newsrelease gave us a > lift, but you made valid points on behalf of England. > > Again, thank you for all you do for the 303rd. > Lou and Rosemary Grandwilliams > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "Joseph Trojan" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 10:47:26 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF (Ret.). > I was in the original 303rd that flew to Molesworth in Sept '42. My = > Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew Lyle. Our air = > craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St Nazarre) = > Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were Killed. I = > spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = > his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force = > until retirement (Nov 1971.). My wife died in 1985. I live alone.at = > 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089. My Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax = > 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.=20 > > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF = > (Ret.).
>
I was  in the original 303rd that flew to = > Molesworth in=20 > Sept '42. My Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew = > Lyle. Our=20 > air craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St = > Nazarre)=20 > Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were = > Killed.  I=20 > spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = > his 3rd=20 > Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force until=20 > retirement    (Nov 1971.).  My wife died in = > 1985.  I=20 > live alone.at 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089.  My Phone is 281 = > -481-=20 > 0394 Fax 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFF93.B5B0C700-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:55:44 -0700 > Cc: Bill Roche , > Harry Gobrecht , Ed Miller , > Eddie Deerfield , > Dick Johnson , Al Dussliere , > Hal Susskind , Jack Rencher , > glm@xmission.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Murray Stacks > > If you've ever flown into Salt Lake City, you probably noticed the > Murray Stacks, about 8 miles southeast of the airport. The were > two very old smokestacks that were part of the skyline for almost > 100 years and were a navigation point for private pilots. The > towers were 455 feet and 295 feet tall. > > This morning the stacks were dynamited to make way for new > construction. My family and I went to watch the historic event. > Some shots of the stacks coming down are here: > > http://www.xmission.com/~glm/murraystacks.html > > More is here: > http://www.sltrib.com/2000/aug/08052000/utah/9630.htm > Photos were taken with a Canon S-100 Digital Elph camera. > > Salt Lake City will never look the same. > > Regards, > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:58:56 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > glad you are here to tell us your story of how your dedication to serving > along with others living and deceased all of which provided the freedom we > have today, that too many of our citizens do not have an appreciation. we > need to urge all our kinfolk and families to view this website and join in > the various categories and thereby help keep this great true story alive. > others reading this are urged to enlist memberships into this assn. the WWII > memorial must be built as recommended as the efforts in WWII far exceed the > invovement of objectors ,who cite lesser reasons for monuments. cheers to all > as i today celebrate my 80th birthday and thank my god for allowing me to > return whole to my home fromWWII. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: IBSPEC@aol.com > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:06:55 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Murray Stacks > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > gary .appreciated news. ibspec@aol.com > > --__--__-- > > Message: 14 > From: TColw10607@aol.com > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 15:37:05 EDT > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello > > Hello from south Louisiana, I am Tom Colwell (exafbrait), with a life long > interest in World War II. My interest is in Molesworth Airdrome, the layout, > the control tower and supporting buildings. If enough information, photo's > etc., can be procured maybe some models can be built and donated. Is it > possible? > > --__--__-- > > Message: 15 > From: "Wilbur Klint" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:45:58 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Welcome. We're glad to have you. Hope to meet you in San Diego next = > month. We need all the Texans we can get!!! > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Joseph Trojan=20 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:47 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > > I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF (Ret.). > I was in the original 303rd that flew to Molesworth in Sept '42. My = > Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew Lyle. Our air = > craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my 21sMission, (St Nazarre) = > Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were Killed. I = > spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was Liberated by Patton and = > his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in the Air Force = > until retirement (Nov 1971.). My wife died in 1985. I live alone.at = > 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089. My Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax = > 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net.=20 > > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Welcome.  We're glad to have = > you.  Hope=20 > to meet you in San Diego next month.  We need all the Texans we can = > > get!!!
> style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = > 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > black">From:=20 > Joseph = > Trojan=20 > >
To: href=3D"mailto:303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com"=20 > title=3D303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com>303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 = > 10:47=20 > AM
>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = > Introduction
>

>
I am Col. Joseph (Jay) E. Trojan USAF = > (Ret.).
>
I was  in the original 303rd that flew to = > Molesworth in=20 > Sept '42. My Sqdn was the 360th. My flight leader was Capt (M Gen) Lew = > Lyle.=20 > Our air craft was The "Yardbird" I was shot down on my = > 21sMission, (St=20 > Nazarre) Two of my crew Thompson (Cp) and Prescott Engineer, were = > > Killed.  I spent 2 Years as a POW in Stalag Luft III. Was = > Liberated by=20 > Patton and his 3rd Army. I am regular Air Force who spent 30 Years in = > the Air=20 > Force until retirement    (Nov 1971.).  My wife = > died in=20 > 1985.  I live alone.at 12003 Kirkbriar, Houston ,Tx, 77089.  = > My=20 > Phone is 281 -481- 0394 Fax 281-464-0000 E jtrojan @pdq.net. = >
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFFEF.B4DCD060-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 16 > From: JJENKINSR@cs.com > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 05:40:54 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Response to Introduction Question > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I joined the 303rdBGA several months ago as a family member. I also make > a small annual donation to the 303rd in memory of 2LT Raley and the other > members of 1LT Cureton's crew who were KIA on the 21 Nov 1944 mission to > Merseburg. > Additionally, as a result of the information contained in the 303rd web > site a nephew of 2LT Raley contacted me concerning the fate of Raley. > Somehow the family had not been completely informed of what happened to most > of Cureton's crew that day. > Once again, many thanks to Gary Moncur for maintaining this site. It > must truly be a labor of love. > > John A. Jenkins > > --__--__-- > > Message: 17 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Hello > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:21:49 -0500 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > If you want to build a model of Molesworth, contact: > > Brian S. McGuire > Senior Systems analyst > BETAC Corporation > HQ USEUCOM > Joint analyisis Center > PSC 46, Box 404 > APO 09469 > e-mail: jac@betac.com > > Brian is the unofficial historian of Molesworth and I am sure he could > provide you with drawings, aerials, etc. of the base from the war. > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of TColw10607@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 2:43 PM > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Hello > > Hello from south Louisiana, I am Tom Colwell (exafbrait), with a life long > interest in World War II. My interest is in Molesworth Airdrome, the layout, > the control tower and supporting buildings. If enough information, photo's > etc., can be procured maybe some models can be built and donated. Is it > possible? > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > --__--__-- > > Message: 18 > From: EISENCOL@aol.com > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:14:29 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Introduction > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ALL THE FLORIDIANS TOO??? WILL SEE YOU GUYS IN SD. > > BEST BILL/MARY > > --__--__-- > > Message: 19 > From: EISENCOL@aol.com > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:15:52 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Response to Introduction Question > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I SECOND THAT !!!!! BILL E > > --__--__-- > > Message: 20 > From: "Bill Owen" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:09:06 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > My name is Bill Owen. I joined the 303rd as a family member. My brother, = > S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the Joseph F. Palmer crew (360th = > Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE AVENGER on a mission = > to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four became = > POW's. I have found much information for my family since I discovered = > the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the = > name of their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler, = > Texas. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
My name is Bill Owen. I joined the = > 303rd as a=20 > family member. My brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the = > Joseph F.=20 > Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE = > AVENGER on=20 > a mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four = > became=20 > POW's. I have found much information for my family since I discovered = > the 303rd=20 > web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the name of = > their=20 > aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler,=20 > Texas.
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0005F.E77261A0-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 21 > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] introduction > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:07:15 -0700 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260" > > ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi Bill, > Welcome to the list. I am Gordy Alton, son of Donald M. Alton, 323dBS, = > 91BG. We both live in Canada, he in Alberta, myself in BC. There are = > sure some interesting people coming on to this list, and you are no = > exception, I believe. I really admire some of you folks who may be a = > little older than the rest of us, for going forth with internet affairs. = > My own father, Don, would not be able to do it, I don't think. I act as = > a go between for him and some of his fellow BG members and kriegies (he = > was in Stalag XVIIB). So, it is a pleasure to meet you, and the others = > of this group who are not scared of computers or keyboards, and put = > stuff out there for my generation. > Thanks. > Gordy. > > NB. I have attached a page I find helpful for searching for records of = > WWII personnel. Most of it is from the NARA. You and the rest may find = > it helpful, Bill. > G. > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Bill Owen=20 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 9:09 AM > Subject: [303rd-Talk] introduction > > My name is Bill Owen. I joined the 303rd as a family member. My = > brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the Joseph F. Palmer crew = > (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE AVENGER on a = > mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other four = > became POW's. I have found much information for my family since I = > discovered the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even = > know the name of their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in = > Tyler, Texas. > > ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Hi Bill,
>
Welcome to the list. I am Gordy Alton, = > son of=20 > Donald M. Alton, 323dBS, 91BG. We both live in Canada, he in Alberta, = > myself in=20 > BC. There are sure some interesting people coming on to this list, and = > you are=20 > no exception, I believe. I really admire some of you folks who may be a = > little=20 > older than the rest of us, for going forth with internet affairs. My own = > father,=20 > Don, would not be able to do it, I don't think. I act as a go between = > for him=20 > and some of his fellow BG members and kriegies (he was in Stalag XVIIB). = > So, it=20 > is a pleasure to meet you, and the others of this group who are not = > scared of=20 > computers or keyboards, and put stuff out there for my = > generation.
>
Thanks.
>
Gordy.
>
 
>
NB. I have attached a page I find = > helpful for=20 > searching for records of WWII personnel. Most of it is from the NARA. = > You and=20 > the rest may find it helpful, Bill.
>
G.
>
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > black">From:=20 > Bill = > Owen=20 > > >
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 = > 9:09=20 > AM
>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] = > introduction
>

>
My name is Bill Owen. I joined the = > 303rd as a=20 > family member. My brother, S/Sgt. Burl M. Owen, was a member of the = > Joseph F.=20 > Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 flying THE = > AVENGER=20 > on a mission to Hamburg. Burl and six others were killed, the other = > four=20 > became POW's. I have found much information for my family since I = > discovered=20 > the 303rd web site. Until April of this year we did not even know the = > name of=20 > their aircraft. Bill Owen, retired geologist, living in Tyler,=20 > Texas.
> > ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C00057.43325260-- > > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260 > Content-Type: message/rfc822; > name="Records Search.eml" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Records Search.eml" > > Received: from b4b8p0 (ss65.imagenisp.com [204.244.138.86]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) > id PSKWJ7A0; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:39:17 -0700 > Message-ID: <00ed01bff71f$a3f43280$568af4cc@b4b8p0> > From: "Gordon Alton" > To: "Gordon Alton" > Subject: Records Search > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:36:24 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 > > Morning reports and unit rosters are created by military organizations > as part of their personnel and payroll functions. These records are > used by the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) to verify events > or assignments which may not be documented in an individual's Official > Military Personnel File (OMPF). This is especially important when > trying to reconstruct service information when the OMPF has been > damaged or destroyed in the fire at NPRC in 1973. A brief explanation > of both types of records and the date span of our collections is > listed below. > MORNING REPORTS are created each morning, as the name implies. They > are an "exception based" system, only containing information on those > individuals who are not "Present and Accounted for". Among the reasons > for being listed on a morning report are: > > Promotion or demotion > Being killed, wounded or missing in action > Being assigned to a unit, or leaving a unit > Going to a hospital for treatment, or to another activity for training > In order to verify that a particular action occurred, we must be > provided with the exact unit of assignment ("Company A, 1st Battalion, > 116th Infantry Regiment"), a description of the action ("I was wounded > and sent to a hospital") and an approximate date ("June, 1944"). > Without this type of information, we may be unable to perform a > search. > > Our collection of morning reports covers the following: > > ARMY AIR FORCE > November 1, 1912 to 1974 September 1947 to June 30, 1966 > > UNIT ROSTERS are created monthly, quarterly or semi-annually. During > certain time periods, separate rosters were created for officers and > enlisted personnel. At other times, consolidated rosters listed both > officers and enlisted personnel. Some units created rosters only for > enlisted personnel. The rosters typically list the members of a > particular unit for the last day of the month in which the roster was > created. > > NPRC stores unit rosters for the Army only, for the same years as the > morning reports, 1912 to 1974. (This includes rosters of units of the > Army Air Forces prior to September 1947; however, no Air Force unit > rosters are available after that date.) Unfortunately, the rosters for > the years 1944, 1945 and 1946 were destroyed in the 1970's; no other > source for this type of information for these years exists at this > center. You may wish to contact an "Alumni Organization" in order to > obtain information concerning members of specific units. Please see > our Helpful Links page. > NOTE: Neither morning reports nor unit rosters contain historical > information concerning battles or engagements. Records that contain > this type of information may be available at one of the following: > > U.S. Army Center of Military History > 103 3rd Avenue > Fort Lesley J. McNair, DC 20319-5058 > U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency > 600 Chenault Circle > Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424 > > National Archives and Records Administration > Modern Military Records - NWCTM > 8601 Adelphi Road > College Park, MD 20740-6001 > > SUBMITTING REQUESTS FOR MORNING REPORTS OR ROSTERS: Requests must be > in writing and sent to the following address: > > National Personnel Records Center > Military Personnel Records > 9700 Page Avenue > St. Louis, MO 63132-5100 > > You may use a Standard Form 180, Request Pertaining to Military > Records, or, write a letter to the center. > Specify the information needed and the purpose of the request. In > order to conduct a search of morning reports and unit rosters we need > as much of the following information as possible: units or outfits; > complete organizational designation (company or battery, battalion, > and regiment; squadron, group, and wing, etc.); geographical location > (camp, base, and country). > > Searching morning reports and rosters can be quite time consuming. > Please limit your request to a specific event or personnel action. We > are not staffed or budgeted to perform searches of organizational > records for research or reunion purposes as our main responsibility is > to respond to requests from or on behalf of veterans who are seeking > benefits due them under various veterans laws. > > SEARCH FEES: Depending on the number of searches required there may be > a fee assessed. If that is the case, payment is required before the > searches are undertaken. Fees are assessed for our time spent locating > the records (at the rate of $13.25 per hour) and for any copies that > are made (first 6 pages, $3.50; each additional page, $0.10), with a > minimum charge of $8.30. A deposit of $8.30 is required before we > begin the search.You will be billed for any additional costs. All > remittances should be made payable to the National Personnel Records > Center. > > REVIEW OF RECORDS BY YOURSELF OR A DESIGNATED REPRESENTATIVE: It is > also possible for our staff to make the records available to you or > your designated representative for review of the morning > reports/rosters at our Center. If that is not possible, you may wish > to contact the history department of one of the local universities for > graduate students who may be available to conduct this research. > Telephone numbers are listed below: > > Lindenwood University -- 314-916-7413 > Maryville University of St. Louis -- 314-529-9454 > St. Louis University -- 314-977-2910 > Southern Illinois University (Edwardsville) -- 618-650-2414 > University of MO - St. Louis -- 314-516-5681 > Washington University -- 314-935-5450 > If you or your designated representative decide to review the records, > please notify us in advance of your visit so we can make the necessary > arrangements. You will need to speak to the Customer Service > Representative at 314-538-4020 to arrange for an appointment to visit > our Research Room. > OBTAINING RELEASE AUTHORIZATION FROM SERVICE BRANCH: If you wish to > review these records in person, you will first need to write to one of > the following offices to obtain the required authorization for access > to the records: > > FOIA/PA Division > USAISC-P (AS-QNS-OP-F) > 7798 Cissna Road, Suite 205 > Springfield, VA 22150-3166 > Department of the Air Force > Secretary of the Air Force (AAIA) > Washington, DC 20330-1000 > > National Archives and Records Administration > URL: http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprmrr.html > webmaster@nara.gov > Last updated: June 20, 2000 > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00057.43325260-- > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest_______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From fory@galesburg.net Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:19:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:19:54 -0700 From: fory fory@galesburg.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Roger Kuykendall's Crew I am Forrest Barton and was ROMG on Kuykendalls crew. We were a replacement crew having arrived in Liverpool the day that our troops stormed the beaches at Normandy. After 10 missions we became Lead and did 20 more. Arrived back in US on day Roosevelt died. Syylvester "Dutch" Rape, Bombardier and Everette Boone , Gunner are only crew members still alive, that I am aware of. I made the very first reunion in NY and the first one held in Florida. I hold SLF007 I was recalled to active duty in 1950 and retired in July 1970 with rank of Major.I have not made all the reunions but will keep trying. Thanks to the offspring who are keeping things going. From JJENKINSR@cs.com Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:39:34 EDT Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:39:34 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Roger Kuykendall's Crew The 'offspring' will keep things going as long as possible. The real thanks belongs to the WWII veterans. Those of us who grew up in the relatively peaceful post war era can only imagine what sacrifices were endured. I believe that if these sacrifices were not made at that time, the losses to yet unborn generations would have been significantly greater. John A. Jenkins 303rd Family Member Lieutenant Commander USNR (Retired) From JJENKINSR@cs.com Tue, 8 Aug 2000 04:08:53 EDT Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 04:08:53 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Murray Stacks and Other Places On a much grander scale Seattle has done the same thing. In their infinite wisdom the City of Seattle, King County, and the State of Washington decided to implode the covered Kingdome which was a multi purpose sports Stadium constructed in the late 1970s. This is quite remarkable as the Kingdome has not been paid for to date. The Kingdome was also a landmark to those pilots flying VFR. The implosion has been completed and the debris has been removed. To replace the Kingdome Stadium we now have a baseball Stadium with a retractable roof and will soon have a football Stadium which will not be covered. This is also quite remarkable as anyone who has been outdoors in a Seattle winter would probably rather be some other place. Such progress we are making! My apologies to the veterans of the 303rd. I could not pass up the opportunity to make a few comments on this topic. In the future I will endeavor to limit my input to the WWII era. John A. Jenkins From Wmjdallas@aol.com Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:05 EDT Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:05 EDT From: Wmjdallas@aol.com Wmjdallas@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #8 - 7 msgs Thanks for including Bryan McGuire's correct e-mail address. I was unable to thank Bryan when we were at Molesworth but now, with his address, I have been able to thank him for the tremendous job he did for the memorial monument and the reception we received at RAF Molesworth. Bill Dallas From JJENKINSR@cs.com Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:46:23 EDT Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:46:23 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill of Sale for 8 Ball Mk II There is a minor discrepancy concerning the price of a B17. According to the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson (www.wpafb.af.mil/museum), the cost of a B17 was $276,000. The B17 '8' Ball Mk II must have had some additional features. According to the invoice it appears that this aircraft received the Cheyenne Modification. The cost of this particular B17 pales in comparison to the following aircraft. B29 $ 639,000 B47 $1,888,000 B50 $1,144,000 B52 $7,000,000 John A. Jenkins From glm@xmission.com Wed, 9 Aug 2000 04:44:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 04:44:30 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Bill of Sale for 8 Ball Mk II The $276,000 price was for a "G" model. I would have thought the "F" model like, 8 Ball Mk II, was would be less.... hmmm I'd bet the $276,000 price is the list price just like buying a car. A car might have a list price of $19,000 but you can be sure it will cost $25,000 before you get it home. Maybe they paid extra to have air conditioning and a CD player. :-) > There is a minor discrepancy concerning the price of a B17. > According to > the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson (www.wpafb.af.mil/museum), > the cost of a B17 was $276,000. The B17 '8' Ball Mk II must have had > some additional features. According to the invoice it appears that > this aircraft received the Cheyenne Modification. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 9 Aug 2000 07:59:39 EDT Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 07:59:39 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Greetings from Florida So glad to be aboard. Did 35 with Fink's Crew (Marvin Fink), finished with Berlin Raid, 3 Feb.,'45. Still working as designer/illustrator along with wife Nyela. Have nine children between us, 10 grandchildren, one great-gc. We invite your checking on our web page, book "LAST RAID" about life at Molesworth. Good wishes for your health and good times.....Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From glm@xmission.com Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:43:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:43:03 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable group photo Were any of you at Molesworth when Clark Gable visited? Jack Turkel sent me a photo... this one: http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-gable-group.html Can you identify anyone in the photo or tell what group it was? - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From wejones@megalink.net Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:20:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:20:46 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] new list member ... hello I just joined the list, and am sending this as an introduction. My late father, William E Jones Jr, was a pilot in the 360th BS between Aug 44-April 45. I have a web page with a collection of pictures and other things he collected, at: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html I've been trying to do research to learn more about my father's missions for several years, but it wasn't until I found the 303rdbga web page about 6 months ago, that I started to have some success. I've now identified nearly all the missions and planes flown, and am archiving all the info to pass on to my son and daughter, but I'm still eager to learn more. I've joined the association, and have ordered the CDROM, which should be a great help. I look forward to reading the discussions here. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From westwind@candw.ky Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:34:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:34:31 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable group photo I remember Gable's visit, but can't identify anyone in the photo. Arni Sumarlidason of the 358th -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 3:43 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable group photo Were any of you at Molesworth when Clark Gable visited? Jack Turkel sent me a photo... this one: http://www.303rdbga.com/pp-gable-group.html Can you identify anyone in the photo or tell what group it was? - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From glm@xmission.com Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:32:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:32:24 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] new list member ... hello > I have a web page with a collection of pictures and other things he > collected, at: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/wwii.html I've been > trying to do Bill, welcome. Those are some great photos. (#29 is missing). That piece of flak is like one I had that came out of the sleeve of my Dad's A-2 jacket from the March 6th, 1944 mission to Berlin. I can't find it and it has been driving me nuts for years. I've searched this house from top to bottom and can't find it. I'm still sure it's here somewhere. Now I have to go look again. Regards, - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From wejones@megalink.net Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:48:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:48:11 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] new list member ... hello > Bill, welcome. Those are some great photos. (#29 is missing). Thanks. I fixed that. I ran out of space and moved some files, but forgot to update the references to them. > That piece of flak is like one I had that came out of the sleeve of my > Dad's A-2 jacket from the March 6th, 1944 mission to Berlin. I don't know for sure what mission my flak came from. I found a home-town college newspaper clipping that said my father was hit by flak on his first mission, which would have been Oct 3 1944 (right after the infamous Sept 28 mission). The newspaper said it was only a minor injury, and he didn't earn a purple heart, so it must have been flak that had lost most of it's energy. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From AHewitt202@aol.com Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:31:13 EDT Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:31:13 EDT From: AHewitt202@aol.com AHewitt202@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Introductions Hi to all - I am Angie Hewitt, daughter of O.Z. Rowe. He happens to be here with me now, so we both wanted to say hello and thanks for all the work to support this effort! O.Z. Rowe arrived at Molesworth, 358th squadron, in May 1944. He was a Hell's Angels radio operator on the crew of S.E. Rosser, pilot. He flew 27 missions beginning in June of 1944 and ending in January 1945 - some were a little more exciting than others (he's a member of the Caterpillar club!!). Dad is still in touch with Norman W. Putney (Waist gunner), William D. Foster (Ball turret and waist gunner), and Earl Douglas (copilot and officer tail gunner). Dad has not had information on the remainder of the crew since departing England in 1945 - S.E. Rosser (pilot) and Johnny Helms (Copilot), Earl Metko (navigator - not sure about spelling of his last name), and Wayne Morris (Bombadier). Are any of you on this list or do any of you know anything about these folks? We all visited the base at Molesworth a couple of years ago. We were treated with a royal welcome by all the officers and enlisted personnel at Molesworth. It's not every day that you get the priviledge of walking through an honor guard! We especially appreciated the efforts of Robin Beeby in organizing a day full of memories for Dad and discoveries for the rest of us. I am sure that we will all cherish the memories of that trip forever. If you haven't been to Molesworth, make plans and go - you will never regret the decision and you will always cherish the memories. As an aside to the Molesworth visit - yes, Kevin Pearson, the Fox was there during the war years. Dad says they spent many happy afternoons there - playing darts and drinking the beer served from 50-gallon barrels - can you imagine?! The Fox was owned and run by a family - husband, wife and two daughters. One of the daughters married an American and they now reside in McDonough, GA. Dad has had several conversations with her over the phone - she still remembers all the guys. During our visit to Molesworth, we had lunch there - and not much has changed - great food and great beer! The place is in great shape, but sadly, under new management. All of us are now living in Gainesville, GA on the beautiful, but ever-shrinking Lake Lanier (another drought year is with us). Thanks again for all the work and we will continue to enjoy all the info coming through the "mail". Bye from all - O.Z. and Annette Rowe and John and Angie Hewitt From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:21:10 EDT Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:21:10 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable group photo Gary, Clark Gable was there before my time, so I can't help you. Sorry. Jack. From Bhandsr@aol.com Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:12:51 EDT Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:12:51 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] new list member ... hello Hello Bill: I flew as bombardier with 360th, Sept.44-Feb.45. Sorry to say I did not know your dad...we flew constantly in an effort to get those missions out of the way. While at Molesworth, did many sketches, stories, photos all in book "Last Raid" which is in Smithsonian, 8th Heritage, EAA@Oshkosh, etc., etc. Write if interested, or refer to web page Hope this finds you in good health and spirits. Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From wejones@megalink.net Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:37:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:37:36 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Introductions.... Armfield After joining the list yesterday, I checked out some of the old introduction messages, and found the introduction message from John Armfield. His name caught my attention, both because he flew on several missions that my father flew on, but also, because one of the pictures on my web page had a picture of a plane he was flying on Jan 29 1945. The picture (one of the more images from item 2) is : http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/Jan29puq.html I've labled the planes I could identify, but according to the microfilm records I have, the prominent plane in the picture, which is 44-6516, PU-Q, "My Darling", which was flown by John Armfield that day. John is also listed as one of the pilots on the squadron briefing sheet, item 27 on my web page, ie: http://www.megalink.net/~wejones/plaubrfsh.html I find it rather exciting to be able to link up pictures and documents like this with the actual person flying the planes. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From VQHARGROVE@aol.com Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:43:40 EDT Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:43:40 EDT From: VQHARGROVE@aol.com VQHARGROVE@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Clark Gable group photo I don't believe this picture was made at Molesworth. I believe some of the men are from the news media. Quentin Hargrove From spruners@mlode.com Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:25:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:25:59 -0700 From: Don Spruner spruners@mlode.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot/co-pilot time Hi-- I'm Don Spruner from the foothills of California. I flew my first mission Aug. 4th 1944 and the 35th Nov 21, 1944 ( Merseberg ) Can you imagine going to briefing that morning-- If you've ever been to Merseberg, you know what I mean. I was wondering if the other squadrons other than the 427th had a practice of splitting flying time ( for reporting on form 5 purposes ) between 1st pilot and co-pilot. I know from Harry Gobrecht that the 358th did not have such an arrangement but maybe the other squadrons did. It made sense since all of the co-pilots I knew flew 1/2 of the mission and were not just along for the ride. Anyhow maybe it is something to talk about in this new forum-- let's see. From Jprencher@aol.com Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:06:26 EDT Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:06:26 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot/co-pilot time Hi Don, I did not know any squadron split first pilot time with the copilot. That does not mean it didn't happen I just did not known about it if it did. They were certainly both pilots but the first pilot was the boss man. In charge, The buck stopped there. If they clobbered their bird it was the first pilots responsibility. Now lets get down to the nitty gritty. Some copilots were better pilots than their first pilots. In fact some of our very best pilots were copilots. In fact some of our pilots became lead pilots because their copilots kept them out of trouble and made them look good when they were not. In fact one of the two best 4 engine pilots in Eight Air Force was a copilot. Quite a few copilots were upgraded to first pilot during their tour of duty. I don't know of a one of them that did not do a very good job. Yes, I know what you mean. We went to Merseburg 3 or 4 times and we came home looking like a sieve on 2 or 3 engines every time. I'd rather have gone to Berlin. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher, The happy copilot From wejones@megalink.net Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie I have an old 16mm movie taken from 303rd B-17s on missions. For the most part, this movie just looks out the window at the other planes in the formation, however at one point, the person taking the picture latches on to a single contrail from something that has flown very close to the formation, and practically turns upside down trying to follow the trail to it's source, but never makes it... all that shows up is the trail. During this segment of the movie, none of the B-17s are leaving contrails (although later in the movie they do). Anyway, my speculation is that perhaps this single contail was from one of those German jet or rocket fighters zooming by? Or could it have been a tracer from a bomb or from AA? No flak was evident in the movie, so I really suspect that it was a rocket plane. Does this make sense. At another point in the movie, a P-47 flies by, and the camera man was able to follow it with no problem. (BTW, This movie was taken in early 1945, and I thought that the P-47s had been replaced by P-51s by that time???) ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From wejones@megalink.net Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot/co-pilot time > I was wondering if the other squadrons other than > the 427th had a practice of splitting flying time ( for reporting on form 5 > purposes ) between 1st pilot and co-pilot. I know from Harry Gobrecht that > the 358th did not have such an arrangement but maybe the other squadrons > did. It made sense since all of the co-pilots I knew flew 1/2 of the > mission and were not just along for the ride. Anyhow maybe it is something > to talk about in this new forum-- let's see. I know that this question has been answered well, but I wanted to ask what this "form 5" was that you referred to? I have been trying to figure out my father's service from microfilm records that I bought from Maxwell AFB. The microfilm has aircraft loading lists for each plane on each mission, which usually start out with the pilot and co-pilot something like: P name/rank (P) CP name/rank (CP) followed by the rest of the crew. It seems like the P/CP on the left is how they served on a particular mission, and the one after the name seems to be the job classification of the person. In looking through the microfilm, I often see examples of a co-pilot being upgraded to pilot, but first flying what seems to be a checkout mission with an experienced pilot... this seemed to be indicated on the loading lists like: P name/rank (CP) CP Name/rank (P) then after that the new pilot would have a (P) after his name. I also see many examples of two experienced pilots flying together, often on a lead ship, being noted in the loading list as P name/rank (P) CP name/rank (P) Now, the question..... My father served as a flight instructor for 2 years back in the states before reporting to the 303rd, so he had a lot of flying time, but not much in a B-17, and not any combat experience when he reported. On his first 8 or 9 missions, (before he was upgraded to pilot and then to lead pilot) he flew as co-pilot, but was listed as a pilot, like: P name/rank (P) CP father's name/rank (P) then on his first mission as a pilot; his mos was changed to copilot, like: P father's name/rank (CP) CP name/rank (P) After that, his mos went back to being (P) again. Anyway, does this sound strange, ie being classed as a pilot for 10 mission while flying as co-pilot, then being classed as a co-pilot once he started flying as pilot? BTW, the man my father flew with when he flew as a co-pilot, had flown HIS first 8 or 9 missions as a co-pilot (CP), but then was upgraded to (P) when my father started flying with him, but after my father switched to pilot, this man reverted to flying as co- pilot again for his last few missions, with another pilot, which sounds somewhat like the "splitting time" situation described above. In any event, I was happy to see the above post, and the responses, as it demonstrates that the 4 squadrons seemed to have different proceedures with respect to co-pilots vs pilots. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From psharpe@freenet.co.uk Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:34:10 +0100 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:34:10 +0100 From: Peter Sharpe psharpe@freenet.co.uk Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intro This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I'm Peter Sharpe (UK based) I'm a former seaman and do a lot of WW2 = research on merchant ships/u-boats (have one book published on this = topic and another on the way) but am also very interested in the "Mighty = Eighth" and its combat crews. I'm currently researching Moffats crew = (358th) lost on Mission 111 Aschersleben (2.22.44).I'd be pleased to = hear from other researchers. =20 Cheers Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
I'm Peter Sharpe (UK based) I'm a = former seaman and=20 do a lot of WW2 research on merchant ships/u-boats (have one book = published on=20 this topic and another on the way) but am also very interested in the = "Mighty=20 Eighth" and its combat crews. I'm currently researching Moffats crew = (358th)=20 lost on Mission 111 Aschersleben (2.22.44).I'd be pleased to hear from = other=20 researchers.  
Cheers
Peter
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00-- From spruners@mlode.com Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:47:10 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:47:10 -0700 From: Don Spruner spruners@mlode.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot/co-pilot time Bill The form 5 referred to was a monthly record of each pilots flying time on a daily basis. The form is put in your 201 file as a permanent record. I just reviewed mine and each day that we flew, the time was split. If a mission was 6 hours each pilot logged 3 hours pilot and 3 hours co-pilot. From Jprencher@aol.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:41:45 EDT Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:41:45 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Bill, Contrails are mostly condensed Water vapor that are caused by one or more of three causes. (1) Fuel is a hydrocarbon when it is burned the carbon combines with the Oxygen in the air and forms carbon dioxide, The Hydrogen combines with the Oxygen in the air and forms water, Since the exhaust is very hot this new water is in a vapor state. If the humidity in the air is high the additional water vapor will raise the humidity above 100 percent The moisture will condense and become visible as a vapor trail. Contrails formed this way last quite a long time and can grow bigger because of other factors I will explain. (2) An engine creates a lot of heat which is dissipated into the air. behind the airplane. This air because of the heat expands and hence is less dense than the other air and therefore will start rising like a hot air balloon does. as this air rises it inters into an area of less pressure and hence becomes less dense and loses some of its capacity to hold moisture. The moisture will then condense and form a visible vapor trail. Vapor trails caused by this way usually start well behind the airplane creating them. (3) As an airfoil passes through the air it creates a low pressure area on and over the top part of the airfoil. The less dense air over the wing loses some of its ability to hold water in a vapor state and if the humidity is a bit high it can cause the less dense air to reach 100 percent humidity and a vapor trail is formed. Vapor trails caused this way start at the airplane and usually dissipate a short distance behind the airplane. Vapor trails can be caused by any one of these methods or by a combination of any 2 or all three. Your were right. A jet or rocket engine could and would burn a lot more fuel and could put a lot more water into the air a lot faster than a propeller airplane A Fast jet or rocket airplane could leave vapor trails when a B17 would not. I believe the P47s were used right up to the end of the war in Europe. In some respects they were superior to a P51. They had 8 guns to a P51s 6. They were air cooled had no radiator, for coolant, and were harder to shoot down. They were turbo supercharged and were probably a bit better at high altitude. They were very heavy and stronger than a p 51 . I'll probably catch hell from some for this last paragraph, but so be it. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From p51@1usa.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:48:38 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:48:38 -0400 From: Edward L Frank p51@1usa.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email fee!!! must read >From: "Michael Millek" >To: "Sky Thompson" , > "Larry Sinclair" , > "Robert Lucero" , > "Ruth L Fruitt" , "Kyle Long" > , > "Remi Vranesh" , > "Marjorie Mhoon" , > "Paul Vranesh" , > "Pete M. Fox" , , > "Edward L Frank" , > "Maggie Wetherhold" , > "Marlys Vranesh" , > "Mark Vranesh" , > "Loretta Ann Vranesh" , > "Kenny Seitz" , , > "Jim M Vranesh" , > "JB Goza" , > "Jan Davidson" , "Glenda" > , > "Tony Steuer" , "Terry James" , > "Maryann Hunter" , > "Jerry Goins" , "Karen Embrey" , > "Christine Vranesh" , > "Mikie A Millek" , > "Chris Taylor" , > "Sue/Gary Child/Boren" , > "Mike Wetherhold" , "Darrin" , > "Suzanne Witherow" , > "Bill Bower" , > "Barbara A Brown" , > "Anne Marie Vranesh" >Subject: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email fee!!! must read >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:28:40 -0700 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 > > > > > >> > > > >>Subject: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email fee!!! must read > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> VOTE NO ON Bill 602P!!!! > > > >> I guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill > > > >> 602P 5-cents per E-mail Sent. It figures! No more free > > > >> E-mail! We knew this was coming! Bill 602P will > > > >> permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent > > > >> charge on every delivered E-mail. > > > >> > > > >> Please read the following carefully if you > > > >> intend to stay online, and continue using E-mail. The > > > >> last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the > > > >> Government of the United States attempting to quietly > > > >> push through legislation that will affect our use of > > > >> the Internet. > > > >> > > > >> Under proposed legislation, the US Postal > > > >> Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of > > > >> "alternative postage fees." Bill 602P will permit the > > > >> Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on > > > >> every E-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service > > > >> Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed > > > >> in turn by the ISP. > > > >> > > > >> Washington, DC lawyer Richard Stepp is > > > >> working without pay to prevent this legislation from > > > >> becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming lost > > > >> revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is > > > >> costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You > > > >> may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is > > > >> nothing like a letter." > > > >> > > > >> Since the average person received about 10 > > > >> pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the > > > >> typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a > > > >> day-or over $180 per year-above and beyond their > > > >> regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money > > > >> paid directly to the US Postal Service for a service > > > >> they do not even provide. The whole point of the > > > >> Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are > > > >> already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail > > > >> because of bureaucratic efficiency. It currently takes > > > >> up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast > > > >> to coast. If the US Postal Service is allowed to > > > >> tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" > > > >> Internet in the United States. Our congressional > > > >> representative, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a > > > >> "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" > > > >> above and beyond the governments proposed E-mail > > > >> charges > > > >> > > > >> Note that most of the major newspapers have > > > >> ignored the story-the only exception being the > > > >> Washingtonian - which called the idea of E-mail > > > >> surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" > > > >> (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). > > > >> > > > >> Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode > > > >> away! Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, > > > >> and tell all your friends and relatives write their > > > > > > >> congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill > > > >> 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and > > > >> could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we > > > >> do not want. > > > >> > > > >> Please forward! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > ===== > > HEAR ME>> http://pagoo.com/signature/rnesel > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > From gordy@saltspring.com Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:27:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:27:32 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hello All, I believe that P47s were used as long range escorts before the P51s. They actually went pretty deep into Germany, in Oct. '43. The first mission they were used in this capacity was to Bremen on Oct. 8th, '43. Now, this may not be as long as some of the later missions, but it was also as far as some of the B17s could go then. The B17F was still in wide use, and many of them had not been equipped with 'Tokyo Tanks' yet, to extend their range. Replacement planes were by this time B17Gs, but the Fs were still the backbone of many units. As an aside, I was looking through some of my files yesterday, and I discovered an email written to me on July 7, 1999, by Harry Gobrecht. It was 'cc'ed to Ed Miller, Gary Moncur, and Hal Susskind, and it concerned a mission on Oct. 4th, 1943. My father was shot down that day, and I was trying to find out what the 303rd was up to, because they were on that mission as well. The 91st and the 303rd lost a plane each on that day. My father was on the one from the 91st, and was made a POW. I don't know everyone on a first name basis here yet, but I do know I have seen a couple of these names above appear on messages. It is nice to now be associated with you all, here in the 303rd. Gordy Alton, proud son of a veteran of the 91st. ********************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com>; <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > Bill, Contrails are mostly condensed Water vapor that are caused by one or > more of three causes. (1) Fuel is a hydrocarbon when it is burned the carbon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From Danger77@aol.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:48:09 EDT Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:48:09 EDT From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email fee!!! must read This an old net scam. Larry Farrell From glm@xmission.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:01:11 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:01:11 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email fee!!! must read Yes, it is phony..... A reminder to all, please don't post things to the list that are unrelated to the topic. > This an old net scam. > > Larry Farrell - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From bagnoli2@yahoo.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Golden bagnoli2@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #11 - 7 msgs Vis the contrail explanation, I can only add that I have 2500+ hours as a C-130 navigator and can aver that OUR contrails came from all the hot air issued from the pilot and co-pilot seats! :o) Cheers, Chuck Golden, LCDR JAC Molesworth --- 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Intro (Peter Sharpe) > 2. pilot/co-pilot time (Don Spruner) > 3. Re: contrail in movie (Jprencher@aol.com) > 4. Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email > fee!!! must read (Edward L Frank) > 5. Re: contrail in movie (Gordon Alton) > 6. Re: Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email > fee!!! must read (Danger77@aol.com) > 7. Re: Fwd: Fw: No on bill 602P!! 5cents per email > fee!!! must read (Gary Moncur) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Peter Sharpe" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:34:10 +0100 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intro > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi, > I'm Peter Sharpe (UK based) I'm a former seaman and > do a lot of WW2 = > research on merchant ships/u-boats (have one book > published on this = > topic and another on the way) but am also very > interested in the "Mighty = > Eighth" and its combat crews. I'm currently > researching Moffats crew = > (358th) lost on Mission 111 Aschersleben > (2.22.44).I'd be pleased to = > hear from other researchers. =20 > Cheers > Peter > > ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Transitional//EN"> > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > name=3DGENERATOR> > > > >
Hi,
>
I'm Peter Sharpe > (UK based) I'm a = > former seaman and=20 > do a lot of WW2 research on merchant ships/u-boats > (have one book = > published on=20 > this topic and another on the way) but am also very > interested in the = > "Mighty=20 > Eighth" and its combat crews. I'm currently > researching Moffats crew = > (358th)=20 > lost on Mission 111 Aschersleben (2.22.44).I'd be > pleased to hear from = > other=20 > researchers.  id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__> 
>
Cheers
>
size=3D2>Peter
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0048B.E823CF00-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "Don Spruner" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:47:10 -0700 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] pilot/co-pilot time > > Bill > The form 5 referred to was a monthly record of each > pilots flying time on > a daily basis. The form is put in your 201 file as > a permanent record. I > just reviewed mine and each day that we flew, the > time was split. If a > mission was 6 hours each pilot logged 3 hours pilot > and 3 hours co-pilot. > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:41:45 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bill, Contrails are mostly condensed Water vapor > that are caused by one or > more of three causes. (1) Fuel is a hydrocarbon when > it is burned the carbon > combines with the Oxygen in the air and forms carbon > dioxide, The Hydrogen > combines with the Oxygen in the air and forms water, > Since the exhaust is > very hot this new water is in a vapor state. If the > humidity in the air is > high the additional water vapor will raise the > humidity above 100 percent The > moisture will condense and become visible as a vapor > trail. Contrails formed > this way last quite a long time and can grow bigger > because of other factors > I will explain. (2) An engine creates a lot of heat > which is dissipated into > the air. behind the airplane. This air because of > the heat expands and hence > is less dense than the other air and therefore will > start rising like a hot > air balloon does. as this air rises it inters into > an area of less pressure > and hence becomes less dense and loses some of its > capacity to hold moisture. > The moisture will then condense and form a visible > vapor trail. Vapor trails > caused by this way usually start well behind the > airplane creating them. (3) > As an airfoil passes through the air it creates a > low pressure area on and > over the top part of the airfoil. The less dense > air over the wing loses > some of its ability to hold water in a vapor state > and if the humidity is a > bit high it can cause the less dense air to reach > 100 percent humidity and a > vapor trail is formed. Vapor trails caused this way > start at the airplane > and usually dissipate a short distance behind the > airplane. Vapor trails can > be caused by any one of these methods or by a > combination of any 2 or all > three. > > Your were right. A jet or rocket engine could > and would burn a lot more > fuel and could put a lot more water into the air a > lot faster than a > propeller airplane A Fast jet or rocket airplane > could leave vapor trails > when a B17 would not. > > I believe the P47s were used right up to the > end of the war in Europe. > In some respects they were superior to a P51. They > had 8 guns to a P51s 6. > They were air cooled had no radiator, for coolant, > and were harder to shoot > down. They were turbo supercharged and were probably > a bit better at high > altitude. They were very heavy and stronger than a > p 51 . I'll probably > catch hell from some for this last paragraph, but so > be it. > Best Wishes, > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From Jprencher@aol.com Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:32:09 EDT Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:32:09 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #11 - 7 msgs Chuck, I'm sorry I goofed and left that one out. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me and navigate around those con trails. They are the thickest and worst kind. That will be known as circumnavigation. Stay on a great circle course. Best Wishes in all your ventures. Thanks for your reply. Jack Rencher, The quiet copilot. From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:23:29 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:23:29 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hi Bill: At the end of each mission briefing, we were free to take a Fairchild K-20 (?) camera from the front of the room and encouraged to take as many shots as possible. This was a large format fixed focus thing with a handle on the right side to advance the film. One of the shots I took was a V2 trail in the background of a couple of 17s. It's in my book Last Raid. (plug!) Cheers, Bob Hand (Boynton Beach, FL) From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:38:16 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:38:16 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ol' 517 On our tour we mostly flew 44-6517, probably 28 out of 35. Rattly old bus, but dear to our hearts. Took a mean hit in the chin turret cradle once, with a fist-size hole in the picture window...lucky me, I was down on the sight. Intended to paint the name "Scotch and Sofa" on the nose, but never got to it. Mainly painted jackets and pix of mission activities. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:44:02 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:44:02 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Intro A shameful plug....you might be interested in my book "Last Raid" re/ activities, photos, cartoons, illustrations about life around the base at Molesworth, home of the 358th, 359th, 360th and 427th. I flew 35 with 360th, Fink's Crew. Please see details on web: . Thanks and Best Wishes, Bob Hand From Jprencher@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:45:31 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:45:31 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hello Bob Hann, Bob, Was the shot you got of the V2 rocket trail very early in the morning and in the area around Holland or Belgium? Was it perhaps one of the very first ones they fired at England? Jack Rencher Boise Idaho From Jprencher@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:49:08 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:49:08 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Bob Hand, I see I left the "D" off and I'm not smart enough to unsend it. and send it over. Sorry!! I hope we are still friends. Jack From allen@texasdirect.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:39:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:39:45 -0500 From: allen@texasdirect.com allen@texasdirect.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ol' 517 -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bhandsr@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 8:22 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Ol' 517 On our tour we mostly flew 44-6517, probably 28 out of 35. Rattly old bus, but dear to our hearts. Took a mean hit in the chin turret cradle once, with a fist-size hole in the picture window...lucky me, I was down on the sight. Intended to paint the name "Scotch and Sofa" on the nose, but never got to it. Mainly painted jackets and pix of mission activities. Cheers, Bob Hand _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:58:30 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:58:30 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hello Jack: Re/ the V2 trail....cuss my memory for accuracy, but I'd say the V2 was fired from Belgium...the photo seems to have been taken early PM, shows 2 close B-17 neighbors and nine further out with the rocket trail like a crooked string in the sky almost at vertical attitude. Full page repro in the book "Last Raid", p16. Thanks for the note...good to hear from you. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:00:58 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:00:58 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Happens all the time...Hande, Hahn, Handy, Handlewskiwiec, whatever. No problem. Have a good one.....Cheers, Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, Fla., Hurricaneland. From Jprencher@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:29:57 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:29:57 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Bob Hand, Hope I got it right this time. Thanks for you answer. Where can I buy your Book, Last Raid? I am interested as I saw the first V2 the Germans fired at England. I saw it leave the ground. I timed its flight until it hit and I could see the trail it left. At the end of the mission I reported it to debriefing. I estimated it went 66 miles high and went as I remember 3000 miles per hour. The intelligence officers questions me for days. They thought I was mistaken about where it took off as they could find no ramp. I was positive I knew exactly where it left the ground. They would not believe it's speed nor altitude either. I asked them why they kept questioning me if they didn't believe me. They said because I called where it hit in England over 100 miles away and was with in 10 miles. I'm sure others in the formation saw its flight but didn't see it leave the ground nor did they time it or see it land. We had 12 B17s in the formation with red Triangles on the tail with "C" in the triangle. I look forward to seeing your book. Best wishes, Jack Rencher From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:10:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:10:04 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? Just a quick question. Has the August issue of the 303rdbga quarterly newsletter gone out yet? I had problems getting the last issue, and wasn't sure whether this issue had been sent out yet or not. Thanks. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From glm@xmission.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:18:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:18:08 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? > Just a quick question. Has the August issue of the 303rdbga > quarterly newsletter > gone out yet? I had problems getting the last issue, and wasn't sure > whether this issue had been sent out yet or not. Thanks. > It has been mailed. I got mine about 3 days ago. Bulk mail is pretty inconsistant, but you should get yours any day now. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:22:25 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:22:25 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? > It has been mailed. I got mine about 3 days ago. Bulk mail is pretty > inconsistant, but you should get yours any day now. Thanks. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:49:04 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:49:04 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie So happy to oblige...I send the books out Priority Mail for $23.45. Smithsonian, 8th Heritage Museum, EAA @ Oshkosh have them, as have the Aviation Theme restaurants. Send check to: HAND ENTERPRISES, P.O.Box 740812, Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812. Autographed. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand From palidin@netzero.net Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:53:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:53:44 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? Hollywood gives a visual image of swashbuckling pilots wearing A-2 jackets and "fifty mission crush" caps. So much for Hollywood. Steel helmets were not glamorous, and probably very uncomfortable and awkward. Were they worn, and if so were they worth the effort? Thanks for your replies. Lloyd Grant. (SOA 427th). _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From Jprencher@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:46:55 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:46:55 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? Lloyd. With what we wore Betty Gable would not be glamorous nor feel that way. The Helmets were not uncomfortable at all. In fact they were VERY comforting. Yes, we wore them and I would have worn two of them if they had made some big enough to go over the bottom one. We also wore flak suits, sit on them, put them in our lap and used them for a mattress when we had a nap on the bomb run. They were heavy and uncomfortable but very comforting. (and you slept better) Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From lcoleman@rmci.net Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:21:18 -0600 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:21:18 -0600 From: Loyd Coleman lcoleman@rmci.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hi Jack, I am your neigbor down in the Treasure valley. Which of the P47 or P51 is best didn't matter to me as a TG on the old Flying Fortress for 30 missions the presents of either one was a welcome sight. I did see some rocket contrails but where they came from and landed I didn't see. best wishes Loyd Coleman From Jprencher@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:05:35 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:05:35 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Hi Lloyd Coleman, It's nice to hear from someone in Treasure Valley. I hope you find it. What town do you live in or close to? I wasn't trying to argue a P47 was better than a P51. I just think it had certain advantages especially at very High and very low altitudes. There is little doubt that the P51 was probably the best all around land based propeller driven fighter in our war or any other one. You are absolutely right. We were very happy to see either one of them. As long as we are just talking, P38s were most welcome too. I also liked to see F.W. 190s and M.E. 109s (in a museum). Best Wishes Lloyd, Jack Rencher From lcoleman@rmci.net Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:34:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:34:15 -0600 From: Loyd Coleman lcoleman@rmci.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie Jack, The way Boise is growing Melba will be a suburb of Boise in a few years. I was a member of the William H Petersen crew (427)from Oct.44 to April 45 . I have a Caterpillar club certificate. landed in Belgium during the battle of the bulge. Dec.31 '44. First mission after bailout was Feb.3 '45 needless to I was a little shakey. Loyd From AMS303@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:59:26 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:59:26 EDT From: AMS303@aol.com AMS303@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #13 - 11 msgs Re Steel Helmets I have one comment on steel helmets: one of my best friends a navigator Sumner Roberts was killed on a mission to St Nazaire on May 01, 1943. I was the bombardier and was helpless to save him. He didn't believe in helmets. Abbott Smith 427th Squadron. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:25:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:25:23 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from St. Joseph, Missouri I frequently watch the movies from the air war over Europe, and of course, my favorite is the ORIGINAL (boldface, underline) Memphis Belle. Since I was not a gleam in my father's eye during the war, I have a question. As the formation nears Wilhelmshavem and comes under fighter attack, one of the crew says over the intercom, "109s breaking at 11, breaking at 11." Can anyone tell me what this means. It sounds simple enough, but if you stop and think about it, what does breaking at 11 really mean. Does it mean the fighters have been flying in a striaght line and are turning towards that ship's flight or group? This has puzzled me for some time and I would appreciate any comments. Kevin M. Pearson From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:41:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:41:45 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying Fortress Last Friday I was at the Downtown Kansas City Airport where an air show had been scheduled for Saturday and Sunday. Although the flight line was not open to the public, and because there was a beautiful B-25 parked there, I managed to wind my way through the Administration Building to an open door to the flight line. Not being bashful about asking permission to get in old planes, I rapidly made contact with one of the crew who saw my anxious desire and OKed my venture into the Mitchell - one fine medium bomber - Old Glory was her name. Upon exiting the B-25, I heard the unmistakable thunder of four Wright Cyclone, R1820-97, radial engines. I turned to the north and there she was, about 50 feet off the deck, "beating up the grass" so to speak. She did a fly-by the tower and every, EVERY, eye on that field was locked on that machine and not a soul spoke until she was on the ground. She landed and taxied to her hardstand, all the while those magnificent Cyclones throbbing, brakes squeeling!! It was an awesome spectable to see so many drop everything they were doing, run to where they could get the best view and focus their attention on the Big Bird. Kevin M. Pearson From Theklints@email.msn.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:52:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:52:05 -0500 From: Wilbur Klint Theklints@email.msn.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? The B-17F had a cockpit heater, cickpit insulation and bulkhead doors. It was liveable in an A-2 as long as you had plenty of clothes underneath. When the G model came out with the chin turret most of the amenities were stripped to compensate for the added weight - cockpit heater, insulation, armor plating behind the pilot seats, compartment doors, etc.,etc. The wind blew through the chin turret all the way to the tail. You know the old saying about the steel helmets - When under attack, nothing showed below except the wearer's feet! Personally, I never wore one in the cockpit. The officer's cap accomodated the radio headset much better. Bud Klint ----- Original Message ----- From: Lloyd J H Grant To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? > Hollywood gives a visual image of swashbuckling pilots wearing A-2 > jackets and "fifty mission crush" caps. So much for Hollywood. Steel > helmets were not glamorous, and probably very uncomfortable and > awkward. Were they worn, and if so were they worth the effort? Thanks > for your replies. Lloyd Grant. (SOA 427th). > > _______________________________________________ > Why pay for something you could get for free? > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:53:57 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:53:57 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] steel Pot Helmet Clumsy as they were, one saved my navigator's life. On a raid to Leipzig, Nov.'44, a hunk of flak came crashing through the nose and hit him on the rim of the steel helmet. The ragged edge then put his eye out. Without the helmet on, it's anybody's guess what the damage would have been. He survived, has a prosthesis you wouldn't detect. Best wishes and cheers, Bob Hand (360 th Bombardier, Fink's Crew. (Boynton Beach, Fla.) From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:12:18 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:12:18 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from St. Joseph, Missouri Hollywood talk....most likely they mean that a group of enemy fighters is breaking formation at 11 o'clock to make individual passes on your squadron. Most of the intercom was garbled by rattling, external noise, gasping for breath, cussing, praying, guns being fired, etc., etc. Good to hear from you Kevin.....Cheers, Bob Hand, 360th Bombardier, Boynton Beach, Fla. From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:14:52 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:14:52 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flying Fortress A beautiful description, Kevin. Cheers, Bob Hand From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:20:48 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:20:48 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? Thanks for the info, Bud. The big joke in picking up that spankin' new G in Lincoln was that we thought it was "our" plane. Insulated, heated, etc., etc., and a bunch of extra gear to boot. At Valley Wales we got the bad news, bye bye airplane. We did fly the bulk of our 35 in 44-6517, which mothered us through the tour. Best wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, Fla. From Jprencher@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:50:43 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:50:43 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question from St. Joseph, Missouri Kevin, I don't ever recall the "breaking at 11 o'clock" being used by any one I flew with. I assume you have no problem with the 11 o'clock term. I would think that most fighter squadrons flew in 2 or 4 plane formations. When we were attacked by fighters it always seemed to me they would be in a "trail " formation. One behind the other. I don't see how they could aim their guns (airplane) and fly close formation at the same time. I would guess they were braking their 2.3, or 4 plane formation to attack and fire individually, but still stay quite close together. Hope this helps a bit. Jack Rencher From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:13:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:13:04 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Oskar Bosch, IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 I have interviewed Oskar Bosch twice now in the last year. He was an FW 190 fighter pilot with 18 confirmed "victories." He was with a Sturmstaffel, a specially equipped hunter/killer squadron. He had two 30 mm cannons of his ship and three .303 machine guns firing from the nose. Becuase his a/c was heavily laden with cannons and ordinance for the cannons, they were so heavy as to not be too manuverable. They almost always had 109s flying cover for them until they got to altitude and could then use the wieght of their a/c and resulting air speed to escape out fighters. He said they normally would fly down a bomber stream out of range of our .50s, and would -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 4:58 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question from St. Joseph, Missouri Kevin, I don't ever recall the "breaking at 11 o'clock" being used by any one I flew with. I assume you have no problem with the 11 o'clock term. I would think that most fighter squadrons flew in 2 or 4 plane formations. When we were attacked by fighters it always seemed to me they would be in a "trail " formation. One behind the other. I don't see how they could aim their guns (airplane) and fly close formation at the same time. I would guess they were braking their 2.3, or 4 plane formation to attack and fire individually, but still stay quite close together. Hope this helps a bit. Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:46:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:46:00 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question about mission maps and Mar 19 1945 Plauen mission I have several of these missions maps showing the route that the planes took on the missions, and the times they were supposed to be at each checkpoint, etc. The maps themselves don't have much detail, showing only major cities and landmarks, and usually don't show the target town, so I never questioned the accuracy. Last week, someone who has a computer program that plots mission plans asked for mission data to plug into the program, so I gave him a copy of the Mar 19 1945 Plauen mission. After he tried to plot the data, he informed me that the plot didn't seem to hit Plauen, but instead seemed to hit Bohlen. This made sense, since the primary target was supposed to be Bohlen (which I had forgotten to tell him), however the times didn't line up. Ie if the original flight plan was followed, Plauen would have been almost 40 minutes earlier than Bohlen, and it would have been approached from the west, heading east (I have a report saying that the bomb run was made at the time they would have been at Bohlen, and in a generally westerly direction). Further complicating the situation, I read a post to another mailing list from a man who supposedly lead the whole mission for the 8th AF that day, and his account was that they proceeded to the primary target then turned west to get to Plauen. Problem is that Plauen is south of Bohlen. This post also said that this change involved a 180 deg turn that lead to some near collissions, which doesn't make sense relative to the map I have. The report I have indicates nothing unusual other than switching to the #3 target. Only thing I can figure out, which would fit the times, would be if they flew to the furthest east turning point, which was just southwest of Dresden, and then turned back toward Plauen. This would have gotten them back to Plauen at about the right time, and in about the right direction, and would also come dangerously close to the path of planes still going out. Anyway, the question is, in a situation where the primary target is abandoned, and an alternate target is chosen, how much freedom was there to deviate from the path indicated on the mission map. Ie was each group or squadron free to pick whatever path seems best to get to the new target, or were they supposed to follow the original route as much as possible (assuming the new target is on that path). Is there anyone on the list who flew, or has any information about the route taken on this Mar 19 Plauen mission? Also, why is it that the secondary and tertiary targets aren't indicated on the map? Were the crews given another map in case they had to go for the secondary targets? Thanks. Just trying to figure out how to interpret the maps and other documentation I have. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From jander58@bellsouth.net Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:10:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:10:33 -0400 From: Jim Anderson jander58@bellsouth.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ( 303rdtalk ) My name is Jim Anderson. My dad flew with the 359th squadron; Eugene Frazier the pilot. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who flew with " my dad " Eston or anyone with information related. From palidin@netzero.net Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:28:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:28:00 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #13 - 11 msgs Thank you as ever Jack for a pertinent reply. Another dot in the matrix filled in. I am very courious about how you gentlemen regard the Hollywood version of what you went through. For many people this will be the only rendition that will be remembered, and it seems to me that alot of pertinent facts are over looked, or simply ignored by film-makers. Your comments, as always, appreciated. Lloyd Grant. 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: contrail in movie (Bhandsr@aol.com) > 2. Re: contrail in movie (Bhandsr@aol.com) > 3. Re: contrail in movie (Jprencher@aol.com) > 4. When does newsletter come out? (Bill Jones) > 5. Re: When does newsletter come out? (Gary Moncur) > 6. Re: When does newsletter come out? (Bill Jones) > 7. Re: contrail in movie (Bhandsr@aol.com) > 8. 40+ below zero in an A-2? (Lloyd J H Grant) > 9. Re: 40+ below zero in an A-2? (Jprencher@aol.com) > 10. Re: contrail in movie (Loyd Coleman) > 11. Re: contrail in movie (Jprencher@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:58:30 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hello Jack: Re/ the V2 trail....cuss my memory for accuracy, but I'd say > the V2 was fired from Belgium...the photo seems to have been taken early PM, > shows 2 close B-17 neighbors and nine further out with the rocket trail like > a crooked string in the sky almost at vertical attitude. Full page repro in > the book "Last Raid", p16. Thanks for the note...good to hear from you. > Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:00:58 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Happens all the time...Hande, Hahn, Handy, Handlewskiwiec, whatever. No > problem. Have a good one.....Cheers, Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, Fla., > Hurricaneland. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:29:57 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com, 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Bob Hand, Hope I got it right this time. Thanks for you answer. Where can I > buy your Book, Last Raid? > > I am interested as I saw the first V2 the Germans fired at England. I > saw it leave the ground. I timed its flight until it hit and I could see the > trail it left. At the end of the mission I reported it to debriefing. I > estimated it went 66 miles high and went as I remember 3000 miles per hour. > The intelligence officers questions me for days. They thought I was mistaken > about where it took off as they could find no ramp. I was positive I knew > exactly where it left the ground. They would not believe it's speed nor > altitude either. I asked them why they kept questioning me if they didn't > believe me. They said because I called where it hit in England over 100 > miles away and was with in 10 miles. I'm sure others in the formation saw > its flight but didn't see it leave the ground nor did they time it or see it > land. We had 12 B17s in the formation with red Triangles on the tail with > "C" in the triangle. I look forward to seeing your book. > Best wishes, > Jack Rencher > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:10:04 -0400 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? > > Just a quick question. Has the August issue of the 303rdbga quarterly newsletter > gone out yet? I had problems getting the last issue, and wasn't sure whether this > issue had been sent out yet or not. Thanks. > > ************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ************************************** > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:18:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > Just a quick question. Has the August issue of the 303rdbga > > quarterly newsletter > > gone out yet? I had problems getting the last issue, and wasn't sure > > whether this issue had been sent out yet or not. Thanks. > > > > It has been mailed. I got mine about 3 days ago. Bulk mail is pretty > inconsistant, but you should get yours any day now. > > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster > 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: "Bill Jones" > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:22:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] When does newsletter come out? > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > It has been mailed. I got mine about 3 days ago. Bulk mail is pretty > > inconsistant, but you should get yours any day now. > > Thanks. > > ************************************** > *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * > * wejones@megalink.net * > * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * > * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * > ************************************** > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: Bhandsr@aol.com > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:49:04 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > So happy to oblige...I send the books out Priority Mail for $23.45. > Smithsonian, 8th Heritage Museum, EAA @ Oshkosh have them, as have the > Aviation Theme restaurants. Send check to: HAND ENTERPRISES, P.O.Box > 740812, Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812. Autographed. Best Wishes and > Cheers, Bob and Nyela Hand > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:53:44 -0400 > From: Lloyd J H Grant > Organization: Coyote Communications Inc > To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? > > Hollywood gives a visual image of swashbuckling pilots wearing A-2 > jackets and "fifty mission crush" caps. So much for Hollywood. Steel > helmets were not glamorous, and probably very uncomfortable and > awkward. Were they worn, and if so were they worth the effort? Thanks > for your replies. Lloyd Grant. (SOA 427th). > > _______________________________________________ > Why pay for something you could get for free? > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:46:55 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] 40+ below zero in an A-2? > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Lloyd. > With what we wore Betty Gable would not be glamorous nor feel that way. > The Helmets were not uncomfortable at all. In fact they were VERY > comforting. Yes, we wore them and I would have worn two of them if they had > made some big enough to go over the bottom one. > We also wore flak suits, sit on them, put them in our lap and used them > for a mattress when we had a nap on the bomb run. They were heavy and > uncomfortable but very comforting. (and you slept better) > Best Wishes, > Jack Rencher > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "Loyd Coleman" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:21:18 -0600 > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Jack, > I am your neigbor down in the Treasure valley. > Which of the P47 or P51 is best didn't matter to me as a TG > on the old Flying Fortress for 30 missions the presents of > either one was a welcome sight. I did see some rocket > contrails but where they came from and landed I didn't see. > best wishes Loyd Coleman > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > From: Jprencher@aol.com > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:05:35 EDT > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] contrail in movie > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Hi Lloyd Coleman, > It's nice to hear from someone in Treasure Valley. I hope you find it. > What town do you live in or close to? > I wasn't trying to argue a P47 was better than a P51. I just think it > had certain advantages especially at very High and very low altitudes. There > is little doubt that the P51 was probably the best all around land based > propeller driven fighter in our war or any other one. You are absolutely > right. We were very happy to see either one of them. As long as we are just > talking, P38s were most welcome too. I also liked to see F.W. 190s and M.E. > 109s (in a museum). > Best Wishes Lloyd, > Jack Rencher > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > > 303rd-Talk mailing list > > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > > End of 303rd-Talk Digest_______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From Fordlauer@aol.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:52:04 EDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:52:04 EDT From: Fordlauer@aol.com Fordlauer@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Photos My name is Ford J. Lauer III. My EMail address is fordlauer@aol.com I am a family member of the 303rdBGA. I just mailed off a CD ROM to Mr. Harry D. Gobrecht, which contains scanned photos of the 303rd in Boise in 1942. Mr. Gobrecht is listed in the newsletter as the Historian, so I figured he is the one to send them to. The 303rd might want to post some of the photos on the web site. My grandfather, Colonel Ford J. Lauer, was the first commander of the 303rd, taking command in February of 1942. He didn't last long however, as he was promoted to command the 15th wing at Boise in June of 1942. Colonel Lauer went overseas in March of 1943 to serve with the 15th AF. He commanded the 99th BG during 1944. I inherited Colonel Lauer's footlocker with his 201 file, pilot logs, medals, and over 1000 photographs taken by him in the Air Corps from 1925 to 1949. I spent two years scanning the photos onto computer, as they are old and brittle. The images are safe now, even if the originals turn to dust. If by chance anyone knew Colonel Lauer, I would sure like to hear from them. Thanks....................Ford Lauer From glm@xmission.com Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:02:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:02:34 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Photos Ford, Sounds like you have quite a collection! Harry Gobrecht is the right person for your CD. He'll get the photos to me for possble use on the web page and keep them in the 303rd Archives. I look forward to seeing them. Thanks, > I just mailed off a CD ROM to Mr. Harry D. > Gobrecht, which contains scanned photos of the 303rd in Boise in 1942. > Mr. Gobrecht is listed in the newsletter as the Historian, so I > figured he is the one to send them to. The 303rd might want to post > some of the photos on the web site. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Jprencher@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:53:18 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:53:18 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #13 - 11 msgs Lloyd, It's after 10;30 and I'm dead tired. I got up before 5 the AM so this will be short. Maybe I can get a more detailed answer off to you later. All the flying films I have seen of our war made me want to puke, like the Memphis Belle. They were dressed wrong, They talked wrong They acted wrong, Their attitude was wrong. If we had been anything like them the war would have been over in about 6 days and those that would be left would be speaking German and the Germans would not have had to rebuild one building or factory or oil refinery or bridge. They would need no V.A. program either. None of them would be hurt. Good Night Lloyd, Jack Rencher From rroberts@strato.net Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:33:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:33:04 -0400 From: Richard Roberts rroberts@strato.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Unsubscribe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00754.36D43CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please unsubscribe me from your 303BGA. thank You ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00754.36D43CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please unsubscribe me from your=20 303BGA.
 
thank You
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00754.36D43CA0-- From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:25:57 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:25:57 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #13 - 11 msgs Hello Lloyd: Remember in the Hollywood #2 version of Memphis Belle that all the actors wore shiny A-2s and spankin clean shirts. The original version brought on genuine perspiration. Have a good one....Cheers, Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, Fla. From owen26@tucomm.net Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:53:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:53:15 -0500 From: Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00778.8FA1F600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was = in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were = shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it = was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be = inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully = small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or = chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that = someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that = correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living = quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that = several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated. = Thanks, Bill Owen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00778.8FA1F600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Are there any ball turret gunners out = there? My=20 brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer = crew (360th=20 Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am = curious to=20 know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the = opportunity to=20 be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was = awfully=20 small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or = chute=20 because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that = someone had=20 to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am = also=20 curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many = people=20 did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the = same hut.=20 Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill=20 Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00778.8FA1F600-- From allen@texasdirect.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:32:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:32:34 -0500 From: allen@texasdirect.com allen@texasdirect.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C00785.ED6D4520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Owen Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill Owen    ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C00785.ED6D4520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History = Channel=20 called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have = seen,=20 one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the = program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points = out=20 that the ball could be retracted=20 inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was = somewhat=20 less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.=20
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill=20 Owen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 PM
To:=20 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball=20 Turret

Are there any ball turret gunners = out there? My=20 brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer = crew=20 (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was = KIA. I am=20 curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have = had the=20 opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that = the=20 turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not = wear a flak=20 jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I = have=20 heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the = turret. Is=20 that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as = living=20 quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that = several=20 crews could share the same hut. Any input would be = appreciated. =20 Thanks, Bill = Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C00785.ED6D4520-- From AMS303@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:52:08 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:52:08 EDT From: AMS303@aol.com AMS303@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs In a message dated 8/15/00 10:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: << 6 >> 109's breaking at 11 o'clock means the Messersmits are coming at the formation from the eleven o'clock direction. Quite often 6 or more German fighters will line up and come at the formation. Hence the fighters are coming practically straight at the B17s. As a bombardier I could see the incoming fighters with their guns firing would show up as red flashes on the leading edge of their wings. Abbott Smith 427th Squadron From AMS303@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:11:57 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:11:57 EDT From: AMS303@aol.com AMS303@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs In a message dated 8/15/00 10:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: << 13 >> Bob Hand We picked up our B-17 at Lincoln and brought it to Molesworth via Accension Island to Africa, Marakech, Gibralta, The plane was assigned to others. Our pilot Fst Lt Oscar Johnson quit and wouldn't fly combat so the crew was broken up. I ended up flying some missions with Capt Billy Southworth. Abbott Smith 427th Squadron From susskind@webtv.net Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:27:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:27:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question about mission maps and Mar 19 1945 Plauen mission At 84+ years of age I may be a little hazy but the basic map you are talking about we plotted at the navigators briefing. When I got into the plane before takeoff I transferred all that basic information to real maps which showed terrain features etc. As a lead navigator I had another set of maps whiiich had the German flak positions plotted on it. They are presently hanging on the wall of my den. Hal Sussknd From AMS303@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:28:13 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:28:13 EDT From: AMS303@aol.com AMS303@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs In a message dated 8/15/00 10:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: << 13 >> Jack On the 11 oclock position. As a bombardier I saw any number of attacks from 11 oclock. In fact there is a movie "12 Oclock High". What the ME 109s would do is come up ahead of the formations high and then charge down firing their guns usually 20mm cannons and split S and drop below. Now my last mission was 16th 1943. Abbott Smith 427th From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:08:04 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:08:04 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret My ball turret gunner was Dick Albright who lives now in Lakeland, Florida. We did not become operational until Oct.'44 and finished tour in Feb.'45. You might want to contact him...except for our pilot (I was bombardier) Dick is the only other crew I have been in touch with in all these years. Yes indeedy, that was a tiny turret to stay captive in for all those hours. For a good look at what life was like in Molesworth/303, see my book "Last Raid", check web page at:
I have=20 seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very disappointed, so much = so,=20 that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the = producers.  The=20 show made the BTG look as if he was the most important crew member, that = he was=20 exposed to more danger than any other crew member.  My research = indicates=20 BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think = about=20 it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than = say a=20 waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was = jammed,=20 there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from the = escape=20 hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an appropriate = position, the=20 crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, = or the=20 crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to = the=20 ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was = very=20 disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where the = ball was=20 so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney = discuss one=20 of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came = in with=20 a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the = entire=20 crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The History = Channel gets=20 a failing grade for this show in my opinion.
Kevin=20 M. Pearson
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
Sent: Wednesday, August = 16, 2000=20 1:38 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi=20 Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the = History=20 Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have = seen,=20 one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, = the=20 program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but = points out=20 that the ball could be retracted=20 inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there = was=20 somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.=20
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill=20 Owen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 PM
To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball=20 Turret

Are there any ball turret gunners = out there? My=20 brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer = crew=20 (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was = KIA. I am=20 curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have = had the=20 opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that = the=20 turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not = wear a flak=20 jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I = have=20 heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the = turret. Is=20 that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as = living=20 quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that = several=20 crews could share the same hut. Any input would be = appreciated. =20 Thanks, Bill=20 Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C00822.71046E80-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:29:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:29:24 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Question about mission maps and Mar 19 1945Plauen mission For a thorough and marvilous account of navigating during assembly, onto target, and home, read Harry Crosby's book, A Wing and a Prayer : The 'Bloody 100Th' Bomb Group of the U.S. Eighth Air Force in Action over Europe in World War II. This is a facinating book from a man who was with the 100th almost from start to finish. Crosby was lead navigator, sometimes leading the entire Eighth! The details of assembly, routing to target, and returning off target are describes in detail. Harry is a friend of mine and I highly recommend this book to anyone seeking more knowledge about how we managed to get so many planes in the air and heading in the right direction. It can be ordered from www.amazon.com. I know this is not a commerical site, and I rarely recommend anyone buy anything, but this book is truly worth it. (Sorry Gary if I am violating any policy.) Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 4:36 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Question about mission maps and Mar 19 1945Plauen mission At 84+ years of age I may be a little hazy but the basic map you are talking about we plotted at the navigators briefing. When I got into the plane before takeoff I transferred all that basic information to real maps which showed terrain features etc. As a lead navigator I had another set of maps whiiich had the German flak positions plotted on it. They are presently hanging on the wall of my den. Hal Sussknd _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From allen@texasdirect.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:35:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:35:37 -0500 From: allen@texasdirect.com allen@texasdirect.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00825.9AF89B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any response from the folks at the History Channel? Allen Miller   p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a shout!    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my opinion. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Owen Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill Owen    ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00825.9AF89B50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any = response=20 from the folks at the History Channel?
Allen Miller
 
p.s.=20 My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on = Embry's=20 crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If = anyone out=20 there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a=20 shout!
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21=20 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE: = [303rd-Talk]=20 Ball Turret

I=20 have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very = disappointed, so=20 much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the=20 producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most = important=20 crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew=20 member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than = several=20 other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up = in a=20 little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or = pilot. =20 The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no = escape. =20 Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately = behind=20 him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could = manually=20 crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew = could=20 jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the = ship. =20 The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very=20 disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where = the ball=20 was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy = Rooney=20 discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome = and a=20 Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one = man show,=20 it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a = mission. =20 The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my=20 opinion.
Kevin M. Pearson
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 allen@texasdirect.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 = 1:38=20 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a = series on=20 the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  = Among the=20 few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on = B-17's. If=20 my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball = turret=20 gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be=20 retracted inside=20 the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was = somewhat less danger associated with that position in that = aircraft.=20
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill=20 Owen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 = PM
To:=20 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball=20 Turret

Are there any ball turret = gunners out=20 there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on = the=20 Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down = 6-25-43 and=20 my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like = being a=20 ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside = a B-17=20 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully = small. I=20 understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or = chute=20 because there was not enough room in the turret. I have = heard that=20 someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. = Is that=20 correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served = as=20 living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I = would assume=20 that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would = be=20 appreciated.  Thanks, Bill=20 = Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00825.9AF89B50-- From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:31:59 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:31:59 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs A bit discouraging when your pilot, who's supposed to be an inspiration, decides that combat is not the thing for him. We had a copilot who went that way....he took the blame for a tail-wheel-up landing and was disqualified on a technicality. Eventually the navigator was disq., and we got another along the way. Hope all is well with you and yours. Cheers, Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, Fla. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:37:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:37:57 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C00825.6D4ABA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not a word.  What could they say?  Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any response from the folks at the History Channel? Allen Miller   p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a shout!    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my opinion. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Owen Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill Owen    ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C00825.6D4ABA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not a=20 word.  What could they say?  Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
Sent: Thursday, August = 17, 2000=20 8:37 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi=20 Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any = response=20 from the folks at the History Channel?
Allen Miller
 
p.s.=20 My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on = Embry's=20 crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If anyone out = there=20 knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a=20 shout!
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 = 8:21=20 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE: = [303rd-Talk]=20 Ball Turret

I=20 have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very = disappointed, so=20 much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the=20 producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most = important=20 crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew=20 member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than = several=20 other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up = in a=20 little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or = pilot. =20 The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no = escape. =20 Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately = behind=20 him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could = manually=20 crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew = could=20 jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the = ship. =20 The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very=20 disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where = the ball=20 was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy = Rooney=20 discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome = and a=20 Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one = man show,=20 it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a = mission. =20 The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my=20 opinion.
Kevin M. Pearson
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
Sent: Wednesday, = August 16,=20 2000 1:38 PM
To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a = series on the=20 History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few = programs I=20 have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my = memory is=20 correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners = on B-24's=20 but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need = be (the B-17=20 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated = with that=20 position in that aircraft.
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Bill Owen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 = 12:00=20 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: = [303rd-Talk]=20 Ball Turret

Are there any ball turret = gunners out=20 there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the = Joseph=20 Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my = brother=20 was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball = turret=20 gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look = it over.=20 Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that = the=20 gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was = not=20 enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help = the=20 gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also = curious=20 about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many = people=20 did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could = share the=20 same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill=20 = Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C00825.6D4ABA80-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:56:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:56:38 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] and now,.....the rest of the story! (Sorry, guys, the other day I was pounding out this story, got a phone call, and accidentally sent it unfinished. Kevin) Part I I have interviewed Oskar Bosch twice now in the last year. He was a FW 190 fighter pilot with 18 confirmed "victories." He was with a Sturmstaffel - IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 'Udet', a specially equipped hunter/killer squadron. He had two 30 mm cannons on his ship and three .303 machine guns firing from the nose. Becuase his a/c was heavily laden with cannons and ordinance for the cannons, they were so heavy as to not be too manuverable. They almost always had 109s flying cover for them until they got to altitude and could use the wieght of their a/c and resulting air speed to escape out fighters. He said they normally would fly down a bomber stream out of range of our .50s, and would Part II and would try to pick a squadron or group that was not in formation. He said they always looked for squadrons that were on the outside of a turn with another group in front of them. Usually the prop wash from the group in front, coupled with being on the outside of a turn, would break up some squadrons. They would race down the bomber stream, pick a squadron to attack, and then come in from the rear and above, usually three, five and seven abreast. He said they would close from the rear and when they were within cannon range and still out out of our gunner's range, they would start lobbing 30 mm cannon shells into their particular target. The timed 30mms, he said, we very effective, although the cannon fired slowly. As he closed on an aircraft, he would come in about 200 feet above his target and at a slight angle to the tail to maximixe the gun deflection of the tail gunner and waist. He said they would try to nuetralize the tail position first, then close on the a/c, firing the machine guns and cannons at the wing root, where the wing meets the fuselage and the main fuel cells were. They would also walk their rudders back and forth and spray their target from wing tip to wing tip. Then after the attack, they would roll inverted because there was armor plate underneath the pilots seat, and fly on down through to the next squadron. He said he was so scared when he attached a formation, that he does not remember individual attacks. He loved the big radial engine on an FW because he said he could hide behind it when attacking. Oskar had been a regular fighter pilot until the raid on Hamm in January 1944. He was transferring to another squadron and was there during the raid. He was in a bomb shelter when the RAF came over. After that raid they went out to look for survivors, then the Eighth came, then another lull, and then the RAF ruturned. As he was sitting in the bomb shelter with women and children, having the air sucked out of his lungs, and feeling the compresions from the bombs, he swore he would do everything possible to shoot down the terrorfleigers (terroy fliers). That's when he joined the Sturmstaffel. He said before each mission they had to declare in writing they would not return unless they had at least one bomber "victory" and they were instructed to ram if necessary. Oskar did three times. On 6 May 1945, flying a defense mission for Berlin, he collided with a YAK-9, bailed out, had a nasty knee injury, and was taken prisoner by the Russians. He escaped three days later and walked 1,000 kilometers to his hometown on the German/Austrian border. I have several pictures of Oskar from the war. In all of them he is smiling, appears very happy and well fed. When I look at pics of bomber crews, there are not many smiles, dark circles in the eyes, and in some cases the wear of combat is most evident. I asked Oskar about this paradox. He said in his heavy Austian accent, "Ahh, but Kevin, you forget, we were the hunters, they were the hunted." Oskar still flies today, in fact, he performes at airshows in his glider. The show is called "Wings of Man." I've never seen it, but from what I have heard from others, it is spectacular. Kevin M. Pearson From AMS303@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:56:24 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:56:24 EDT From: AMS303@aol.com AMS303@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Target for Today My Vientnam veteran son gave me the Video Target for Today. Its a video from the planning to the execution and debriefing of a mission. Much to me and my family's delight the ground part was all shot at Molesworth using our personnel, flight line, take off, crew chiefs, the works. Also a lot of combat footage and weather and of course Wing & Bomber Command. The excitement of showing my family Molesworth and the 303rd and the daily mission routine was enormous. From wakeup call on, mess, everything. The video sales address Wings America P.O. Box 4701 Carmel CA 93921. Phone 408-626-9464. I am not trying to sell the viedo but if anyone wants to show their family and friends about the 303rd, Molesworth ,and the men that made it sucessful here is their chance. Would appreciate comments from anyone who has seen the video. Abbott Smith 427th From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:11:24 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:11:24 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret allen miller ,are you a member of any category of the 303rdbga. if not please join now as we need persons interested by family or honor to join us to help keep this great true story of our freedom alive for generations that follow. not only is this message for allen ,but to all others who are reading from this site's grand content, urge family friends and persons of all walks and nature to join us referring them to our membership info at top of our terrific website ,by gary moncur. respectfully offered for the good of our association's longevity. cheers to all . ibspec@aol.com From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:31:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:31:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video As well as being a 303re BG vet I was also a Vietnam vet. Target for Today was shot at Molesworth when I was there. I believe it has played on PBS stations over the years. It is a great movie. It makes the movie "Memphis Belle" look like a comic opera. It shows what the air war was all about. Cheers to you. Hope to see you at the San Diego reunion. Hal Susskind From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:31:31 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:31:31 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret lloyd coleman, re: joe czwonka. i had the bed immediately next to joe. he had those missions,and as i recall he came back to states and personally requested to return. my crew was new to the base and he was a grand concsel for us before and upon return from missions. he also was the life of our hut. he was fun. he would lead us on night raids at dining hall ,by having us get attention of chefs and he manuever to get food items from kitchen ,that we kept in the quonset next to our barracks. we had chicken cooked on a coat hanger held over the small charcoal heater in center f unit. on v e day ,as we were restricted to barracks, a keg of beer was placed between barracks. some member got a bicycle onto roof of our barracks unit ,located a very short distance from molesworth control tower, and rode it aqbout the roof. joe lying in his bed was firing his 45 thru the ceiling and roof as riding was happening. happily ,no injuries ,nor any charges placed. joe had many activities that kept your mind off war things. knew where best pubs were and whose home had best food ,if invited. also convinced us that nottingham was best leave place, not many leave days ,but did get there several times. into forest of robinhood fame. great food places ,canoing ,dances and ladies. on the lms train thru bedford ,home of vat 69 distillery, joe noticed that cases were being put thru basement window of that business onto the railroad loading area, next to where our partivular rail car was stopped. he ,some how distracted the distillery people ans several cases of scotch got into our rail car for our leave. he was good flyer and crew man. i do not recall the figures on his successes in getting kills of enemy fighters. cheers to all as i reverently reflect on this splendid human warrior that deserves all our salutes. ibspec@aol.com From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:42:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:42:37 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret How many of the vets recall being trained to release the Ball Turret in flight? Do you remember where the large wrench was located to loosen the bolts on the Ball? Kevin M. Pearson From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:03:28 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:03:28 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video thanks hal for your service to our nation and to this assn. spec From jackjay@worldnet.att.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:27:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:27:00 -0400 From: Jack jackjay@worldnet.att.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Does anyone know about what year "Target for Today" was filmed? -- and where and how much it costs? Thanks Jack T From EISENCOL@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:44:07 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:44:07 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video IT WAS MADE IN 1944 AND MUCH OF IT WAS MADE AT MOLESWORTH. I HAD CAMERAS MOUNTED IN THE AIRCRAFT I FLEW FOR UNIVERSAL ( ??? ) TO TAKE THE CLOSE-UP SHOTS OF A FORMATION FLYING " CLOSE FROMATION FLYING " SEVERAL SHOTS WERE MADE IN IN THE 359TH SQD AREA DEPICTING A PILOT FLYING AND A BOMBARDIER OVER A NORTON BOMB SITE. I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE COST OF THE PRODUCTION. HOWEVER, IT WAS FUN HELPING TO MAKE THE SHOTS AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE. BILL EISENHART From gordy@saltspring.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:43:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:43:51 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00851.2DAA90E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, Kevin. I just watched it again, as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me = a chance to catch up between naps and trips to the can. The BTG stance on "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That = program makes it sound like the BTG was the most dangerous place on the = plane. Statistics say it was the waist gunners who took the most = casualties. They lacked armor around their positions. My dad always = figured the engineer in the top turret was the most dangerous, because = he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple of good friends who = were TTGs. Most crews were not trained in how to get the ball detached, and = never had, or could find, the wrench to take it off anyway. I'm sure = there were a few guys crushed in the ball when they couldn't get out. = That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews liked to 'stick = together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any easier to = take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that way. The commentator on that show was not too good, either, because he = made it sound like a football game, with guys getting crunched, and rah, = rah, rah. The only saving grace of the whole program is the combat = footage, and the interviews with the vets. They deserved, and got, my = respect. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com=20 Not a word. What could they say? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get = any response from the folks at the History Channel? Allen Miller p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's = Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. = If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me = a shout! -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of = kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very = disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History = Channel and the producers. The show made the BTG look as if he was the = most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any = other crew member. My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than = several other crew positions. Think about it. He was curled up in a = little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot. = The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape. = Boloney!! He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind = him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could = manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew = could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the = ship. The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him. I was very = disappointed in this show. Certainly there were cases where the ball = was so damaged nothing could be done. And I have heard Andy Rooney = discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and = a Fort came in with a trapped BTG. Flying combat was not a one man = show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a = mission. The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my = opinion. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on = the History Channel called "Suicide Missions". Among the few programs I = have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is = correct, the program briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's = but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if = need be (the B-17 could not), so there was somewhat less danger = associated with that position in that aircraft.=20 -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball = Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl = Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). = They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know = what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity = to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was = awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket = or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard = that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that = correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living = quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that = several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated. = Thanks, Bill Owen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00851.2DAA90E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree, Kevin.
     I just watched = it again,=20 as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me a chance to catch up between = naps and=20 trips to the can.
    The BTG  stance = on "Suicide=20 Missions" is very one sided. That program makes it sound like the BTG = was the=20 most dangerous place on the plane. Statistics say it was the waist = gunners who=20 took the most casualties. They lacked armor around their positions. My = dad=20 always figured the engineer in the top turret was the most dangerous, = because he=20 saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple of good friends who = were=20 TTGs.
    Most crews were not = trained in=20 how to get the ball detached, and never had, or could find, the wrench = to take=20 it off anyway. I'm sure there were a few guys crushed in the ball when = they=20 couldn't get out. That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews = liked to=20 'stick together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any easier = to take=20 if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that way.
    The commentator on = that show was=20 not too good, either, because he made it sound like a football game, = with guys=20 getting crunched, and rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace of the whole = program=20 is the combat footage, and the interviews with the vets. They deserved, = and got,=20 my respect.
Gordy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com =

Not=20 a word.  What could they say?  Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.c= om=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
Sen= t:=20 Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject:=20 RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi=20 Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any = response=20 from the folks at the History Channel?
Allen Miller
 
p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer = (Dusty's=20 Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 = missions. If=20 anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me = a=20 shout!
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com
Sent: Thursday, = August 17,=20 2000 8:21 AM
To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

I have seen that show on Ball Turret = Gunners and=20 was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to = the=20 History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG = look as if=20 he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to more = danger=20 than any other crew member.  My research indicates BTGs had = fewer=20 casualites than several other crew positions.  Think about = it. =20 He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than say = a waist=20 gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was = jammed,=20 there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from = the=20 escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an = appropriate=20 position, the crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch = opened=20 into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball by loosening = the bolts=20 holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the = hatch=20 behind him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  = Certainly=20 there were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be=20 done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first = days in=20 theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a = trapped=20 BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the = entire crew,=20 working together, to get through a mission.  The History = Channel gets=20 a failing grade for this show in my opinion.
Kevin M. Pearson
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 allen@texasdirect.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 = 1:38=20 PM
To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a = series on=20 the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the = few=20 programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on = B-17's. If my=20 memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball = turret=20 gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be=20 retracted inside=20 the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was = somewhat less danger associated with that position in that = aircraft.=20
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball=20 Turret

Are there any ball turret = gunners out=20 there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on = the=20 Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down = 6-25-43 and=20 my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like = being a ball=20 turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 = and look=20 it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I = understand=20 that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because = there=20 was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone = had to=20 help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I = am also=20 curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. = How many=20 people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews = could=20 share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  = Thanks, Bill=20 = Owen   
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00851.2DAA90E0-- From jody53@webtv.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: D.D. jody53@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Ball Turret --WebTV-Mail-8842-2109 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Bill Owen Bill Carter described my feelings on this subject the best. Here's why------ I pulled 34 missions in the 359 and 360th, all but about 6 or 8 in the ball turret. I was flying waist this mission when our ball gunner was wounded. The wound was in his buttocks and hip area {unknown at this time} and he was unconscious, unable to talk or help himself in any way. His body or hands were on the turret controls which was rotating constantly, out of control. I waited till I could pull the electric plug and stop this wild rotation. Finally after several attempts and it seemed like hours I got it stopped in the position I needed to crank up the ball. I didn't have the strength to turn the crank and called for help from one of my crew. It took all we had to get it up and finally get our buddy out of the turret. I dressed the wound and got the bleeding stopped, gave him morphine, hooked him up, {we were still at altitude } There was a 2 inch hole in the 'seat' of the ball and I imagine part of the turret was in the wound, or so I thought. Our BG recovered and was sent back to the states. The next mission my pilot said "You fly the ball now, there will be no more waist gunners" I did, and as we speak, I still feel that "hole" to this day. Dyle Davidson --WebTV-Mail-8842-2109 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-8842-2109-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:58:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:58:00 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Jack: Got it at home - will look tonight. I want to say it was about $19 and I got it from a mail flyer I get periodically that markets military books and videos. Send me your address and I will send you a copy. I know I have several at home. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:33 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Does anyone know about what year "Target for Today" was filmed? -- and where and how much it costs? Thanks Jack T _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:59:30 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:59:30 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Wow Bill!! It is a true honor to meet someone who was involved in the filming of that movie!! It is a great and lasting tribute to what you all accompished! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of EISENCOL@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:49 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video IT WAS MADE IN 1944 AND MUCH OF IT WAS MADE AT MOLESWORTH. I HAD CAMERAS MOUNTED IN THE AIRCRAFT I FLEW FOR UNIVERSAL ( ??? ) TO TAKE THE CLOSE-UP SHOTS OF A FORMATION FLYING " CLOSE FROMATION FLYING " SEVERAL SHOTS WERE MADE IN IN THE 359TH SQD AREA DEPICTING A PILOT FLYING AND A BOMBARDIER OVER A NORTON BOMB SITE. I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE COST OF THE PRODUCTION. HOWEVER, IT WAS FUN HELPING TO MAKE THE SHOTS AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE. BILL EISENHART _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From jackjay@worldnet.att.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:03:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:03:09 -0400 From: Jack jackjay@worldnet.att.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Bill.... Are there many ground shots of the 359th in the movie? My Dad was part of the ground crew and wondered if he might be in it. Also, what I was asking was how much the video tape cost to buy, not the production costs.. :) Thanks Jack Turkel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > IT WAS MADE IN 1944 AND MUCH OF IT WAS MADE AT MOLESWORTH. I HAD CAMERAS > MOUNTED IN THE AIRCRAFT I FLEW FOR UNIVERSAL ( ??? ) TO TAKE THE CLOSE-UP > SHOTS OF A FORMATION FLYING " CLOSE FROMATION FLYING " SEVERAL SHOTS WERE > MADE IN IN THE 359TH SQD AREA DEPICTING A PILOT FLYING AND A BOMBARDIER OVER > A NORTON BOMB SITE. > > I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE COST OF THE PRODUCTION. HOWEVER, IT WAS FUN HELPING TO > MAKE THE SHOTS AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE. > > > BILL EISENHART > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From glm@xmission.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:18:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:18:10 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video I would like to get a copy of Target for Today also. I tried to call he number Abbot Smith gave (below) but it has been disconnected. Kevin, (or anyone) if you find where to order one, please post it here. Regards to all ----- this list is great, isn't it! > The excitement of showing my family Molesworth and the 303rd and > the daily mission routine was enormous. From wakeup call on, mess, > everything. > > The video sales address Wings America P.O. Box 4701 Carmel CA > 93921. Phone 408-626-9464. > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:28:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:28:06 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video To all wanting to order Target for Today, I will post address here soon. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gary Moncur Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 4:27 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video I would like to get a copy of Target for Today also. I tried to call he number Abbot Smith gave (below) but it has been disconnected. Kevin, (or anyone) if you find where to order one, please post it here. Regards to all ----- this list is great, isn't it! > The excitement of showing my family Molesworth and the 303rd and > the daily mission routine was enormous. From wakeup call on, mess, > everything. > > The video sales address Wings America P.O. Box 4701 Carmel CA > 93921. Phone 408-626-9464. > - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:31:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:31:47 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target For Today - How to Order This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C00867.9F2C2CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did a quick search on amazon.com and found it for $29.95. Open the link to find out more. My copy was an excellent VHS conversion! And I watch it several times a year when I want to know the "way it was." Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C00867.9F2C2CE0 Content-Type: text/html; name="Amazon.com buying info Target For Today.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Amazon.com buying info Target For Today.html" =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Amazon.com: buying info: Target For Today=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
3D""
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= = = = = = = = = =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
3D"Search
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=
3D"video
= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
 Explore This = Video
  buying info
    technical information
    editorial reviews
 See more by the cast & = directors
=0A=  =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=  =0A= =0A= studio
=0A=
 Share your = thoughts
    write a = review
    e-mail a friend about this = video
=0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= Already Own It? Rate = It!=0A=

=0A= =0A= To improve your recommendations, rate this product:=0A= =0A=

=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=   Not = Rated
=0A= =0A= =0A=   3D"1
=0A=   3D"2
=0A=   3D"3
=0A=   3D"4
=0A=   3D"5=0A= =0A=

=0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
=0A= 3D"Wish =0A= Want it? Win it! Enter = our Wish List Birthday Giveaway.=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

  
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Target For = Today=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Shopping with us is 100% safe.=0A= Guaranteed.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =
=0A= (We'll set one up for = you)
=0A= View my Wish = List
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Our Price: $29.95
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= 3D"VHS"=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Rated: =0A= =0A= =0A= NR=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Starring: et al.=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= Director: studio=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= Edition Details:
=0A= =0A= •=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= NTSC format (US and Canada only)
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= • Black & White, Full length, Full Screen
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= • ASIN: 158585008X=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Amazon.com Sales Rank (VHS): =0A= 22,086=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 3D"Review=0A= =0A=
Write the first review of = this item. Earn a chance to win a $50 gift certificate.
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= Editorial Reviews
=0A= =0A=

Video Description =
This is the fascinating story of a Mighty 8th = Air Force bombing mission from planning to execution. You will follow = these crews from their early morning wake-up to their formation grouping = over England. Then on to Germany as the 8th Air Force bombs German = factories and airfields. Witness the German Luftwaffe put up an = explosive defense over the Reich.

General Hap Arnold called this raid = "..the greatest strike ever". This documentary film is the finest U.S. = Army Air Force documentary ever made featuring actual 8th Air Force = personnel in combat. See B-17 Flying Fortresses, B-24 Liberators and = A-26s all attack the heart of Germany in one massive daylight bombing = raid.

It's not easy to witness 8th Air Force planes and crews fall = from the sky. You will relive their success and sorrows in gut-wrenching = aerial combat. The losses were great, so were their accomplishments. =

From the Producer =
" I was in the 8th Air Force-this is a great = video. I never knew it existed till now". "What a price they paid for = our freedom". "Were all those losses necessary, couldn't they have = waited for more long range fighters?" "Best Aviation video in my = collection".

From the Director =
This is a great documentary that shows how = the air war over Germany was fought. There were long missions, requiring = a tremendous amount of stammer, courage and patience. The losses, though = not revealed to the American people at the time were great. Almost to = the point of stopping precision day light bombing raids. This = documentary tells it as it really happened-you feel you are in the = pilots seat.

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Browse for = Video in:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
  • =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= VHS >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Genres >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Action & Adventure >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= War >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= General=0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
  • =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= VHS >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Genres >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Action & Adventure >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Independently Distributed=0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
  • =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= VHS >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Genres >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Special Interests >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= History >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= General=0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
  • =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= VHS >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Genres >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Television & Documentary >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Independently Distributed=0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
  • =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= VHS >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Genres >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Television & Documentary >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= General Documentaries=0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
    • =0A=

    =0A=
    =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= Where's My Stuff?
    =0A= • Track your recent orders
    =0A= • Use Your Account to view or change your orders=0A= =0A=     =0A=     		=0A= =0A= =0A= Shipping & Returns
    =0A= • See our Shipping Rates & Policies.
    =0A= • Read our Returns Policy.=0A=     =0A=     		=0A= =0A= Need Help?
    =0A= • Forgot your password? Click here.
    =0A= =0A= • Redeem or buy a gift certificate.
    =0A= • Visit the Help Desk.=0A= =0A=     =0A=
    =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Te= xt Only=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Top of Page =0A=
    =0A= =0A=
    =0A= =0A= =0A= Amazon.com = Home |  =0A= Books&n= bsp;|  =0A= Music |=   =0A= DVD =  | =0A= Video =  | =0A= =0A= To= ys & Video Games | =0A= =0A= = Electronics |  =0A= Software | =0A= Kitchen |  =0A= Tool= s & Hardware |  =0A= = Lawn & Patio |  =0A= Health & Beauty  | =0A= =0A= =0A= Auc= tions |  =0A= zS= hops  |  =0A= sothebys.amazon.com  |  =0A= e-Card= s  | =0A= 1-Click Settings
    =0A= =0A= Shopping = Cart | =0A= Your = Account | =0A= Help&nbs= p;| =0A= Sell = Items=0A= =0A= =0A=

    =0A= Search = Video  | Browse = Genres  | Top = Sellers  | New & = Future Releases  | Kids & = Family  | Awards = & Recommendations  | Bargain = Video
    =0A= =0A=

    =0A=

    =0A= =0A= Amazon.c= o.uk  |  =0A= Amazon= .de=0A= =0A=

    =0A=

    =0A= =0A=

    =0A=
    =0A= =0A= 3D"Powered=0A=

    =0A= Certain supplemental information provided by =0A= Muze Inc. =0A= © 1948-2000. All rights reserved. For personal use only.
    =0A= Legal Notices © 1996-2000, Amazon.com, Inc.=0A=     =0A= =0A=

    =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C00867.9F2C2CE0-- From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:49:52 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:49:52 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video kevin can it be copied and sent to others? thanks for reply. ibspec@aol.com From glm@xmission.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:55:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:55:29 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > > kevin can it be copied and sent to others? thanks for reply. > ibspec@aol.com > Not legally. - Gary -SLC, UT- Webmaster 303rd Bomb Group(H) Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:56:53 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:56:53 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret i recall my trining out of gulfport,ms. that over the gulf of mexico ,all of our enlisted crew had to train in all positions, i recall doing firing practice at low altitude over the water firing the guns. later therein practicing in correcting any bt problems such as been discussed. i recall at molesworth. ibspec@aol.comseeing a ball turret being washed out ,body and all of a deatth on mission return From IBSPEC@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:06:17 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:06:17 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target For Today - How to Order kevin ,i cannot get their site up. ibspec@aol.com From glm@xmission.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:09:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:09:43 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target For Today - How to Order > kevin ,i cannot get their site up. ibspec@aol.com Spec..... Amazon.com is here: http://www.amazon.com Then do a search for "target for today" in their search box. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com From todd.hollritt@attws.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:54:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:54:29 -0400 From: Hollritt, Todd todd.hollritt@attws.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video From: "Gary Moncur" Organization: 303rd BGA To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:18:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com I would like to get a copy of Target for Today also. I tried to call he number Abbot Smith gave (below) but it has been disconnected. Kevin, (or anyone) if you find where to order one, please post it here. Regards to all ----- this list is great, isn't it! Hello All, If you want to order the Video grab a credit card and call Zenith Books at 1-800-826-6600, ask for "Target For Today" catalog number 109521C ONLY $19.95. I have ordered plenty of books over the years from them and have had quick service, Usually in your mailbox in a few days! And you will start to receive their great catalog every few months loaded with 8th Air Force books and anything aviation related. Oh, Dad was a Ball Turret Gunner (Alfred Hollritt) with the 427th in 1944, He lost not only his turret to the H2X radar dome, but his entire base too when his crew relocated over to Chelveston with the 305th BG when they started flying the new B-17G's equipped with radar. Dad can still remember the real EARLY wake up call and short flight over to Molesworth to lead the 303rd BG, And the loud Boo's as they entered the mess hall in thick fog. The crews knew they would be flying in horrible weather now because their H2X B-17G could still see the target for today. Dad also remembers biking over to Thrapston to the local wireless store and returning to his Quonset hut (Chelveston?) where he installed the antenna and crystal set and wired the beds for the BBC radio station, What really confused the other crews was why his crew kept their headsets after a raid... That's what they used as headsets to listen in at each bedside! It must have been a funny sight to the uninformed :) Todd- From jimwall@ilhawaii.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:52:13 -1000 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:52:13 -1000 From: Jim Walling jimwall@ilhawaii.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I was a ball Turret Gunner and flew 35 1/2 missions for the 358th squadron between 26Nov44 and 20Mar45. I agree that the ball turret was (or seemed to be) the safest position on the plane. I weighed 128 lb and had no trouble keeping my chute on with the chest pack attached on one side. The one time my turret malfunctioned and I had to fly a waist gun position was one of my most frightening times. Jim Walling At 08:42 PM 8/16/00 EDT, you wrote: >Our Ball Turret was William LaPerch and Bill Died a few months ago so I can't >ask him. He was a great and talent person and I miss him. I have been in >the ball but never flew in it. I believe it was the safest position in the >B17. I would suspect we had less ball turret causalities than any other >position. You could tip it up and open the door behind you and bail out >without getting up into the airplane or you could tip it so the door opened >into the waist and get out into the airplane. Bill was not exceptionally >small and he wore his chest pack in the ball. If you had an electrical >failure you could crank it by hand into any position you wanted to. No one >was ever in it for landing and take off in their right mind. It Did NOT >retract in the B17. If the door did ever get stuck another crew member could >have chopped a hole in it with his hatchet in 5 minutes. > From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:29:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:29:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video I was the navigator for a 359th crew that was banished to the 305th in Late March of 1944. We replaced our best gunner, our BT with a radar dome. Anytime we showed up at a base in the middle of the night, we were as welcome as a skunk at a lawn party. And that included the 303rd BG. We finished our tour on D-Day. and were liberated. Give my regards to your dad. Hal Susskind From Danger77@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:39:53 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:39:53 EDT From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) Did any of you know him? Thanks Larry Farrell, Jr. From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:43:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:43:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Norton was the guy who worked in the sewers in the TV show "The Honeymooners." Norden is the thing that dropped the bombs. There's a lot of faces you will recognize when they panned the briefing room. I know my crew was in some scenes there. I think some of the aerial scenes may have been usd in the movie, "Twelve O'Clock High." Several months ago I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Gregory Peck about that movie. When I met him I had a silver B-17 in my lapel. He recognized it immediately...Hal Susskind From Shaddoe2@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:20:19 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:20:19 EDT From: Shaddoe2@aol.com Shaddoe2@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: flying and mission numbers Hello all, Just a word about mission numbers and all the flying we did. Lew Lyle had 70 plus missions, Bill Heller around 50 plus and myself having flown 53 missions. While flying, I never wore a helmet but I did always sit on a piece of armored plate I carried with me on missions. I got cut a few times and scratched up quite a bit from flack and bullet damage, but they never gave me the Purple Heart for any of that. As far as movies go I would recommend two movies, "Twelve-O-Clock High" and "Command Decision". Also the Memphis Belle was too over rated and the crew talked way too much. cheers, Bergie (Lt.Col. W.H. (Bill) Bergeron USAF Ret.) 358th & 360th Sqds. From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:45:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:45:08 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: flying and mission numbers Thank you , Col. Bergeron, This is the factual information that I have been looking for. Another clue. A real depiction of daily habits, thoughts, and moments. Your response is sincerely appreciated. Lloyd Grant (SOa 427th). Live longer, and be glad. Shaddoe2@aol.com wrote: > Hello all, > Just a word about mission numbers and all the flying we did. Lew Lyle had > 70 plus missions, Bill Heller around 50 plus and myself having flown 53 > missions. While flying, I never wore a helmet but I did always sit on a piece > of armored plate I carried with me on missions. I got cut a few times and > scratched up quite a bit from flack and bullet damage, but they never gave me > the Purple Heart for any of that. > As far as movies go I would recommend two movies, "Twelve-O-Clock High" > and "Command Decision". Also the Memphis Belle was too over rated and the > crew talked way too much. > cheers, Bergie > (Lt.Col. W.H. (Bill) Bergeron USAF Ret.) > 358th & 360th Sqds. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:52:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:52:01 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hal, thankyou. " Twelve O'Clock High" is why I am asking these aggravating questions of my friends. Your kindness, and understanding makes it all worth while. I almost gave up. Very best , Lloyd. Harold Susskind wrote: > Norton was the guy who worked in the sewers in the TV show "The > Honeymooners." Norden is the thing that dropped the bombs. There's a > lot of faces you will recognize when they panned the briefing room. I > know my crew was in some scenes there. I think some of the aerial > scenes may have been usd in the movie, "Twelve O'Clock High." Several > months ago I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Gregory Peck > about that movie. When I met him I had a silver B-17 in my lapel. He > recognized it immediately...Hal Susskind > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:55:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:55:42 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) We all knew him, sir, thank you for remembering him. Danger77@aol.com wrote: > Did any of you know him? > > Thanks > > Larry Farrell, Jr. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:10:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:10:29 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Gary, thanks won't get it. If a tear has a friend, it is you. A mystery, a sleuth you have helped. Men, who were only boys and forced to manhood are beyond the modern ken of understanding. These men have sustained and built the future of mankind... Best, and kindest regards. Lloyd. "Hollritt, Todd" wrote: > From: "Gary Moncur" > Organization: 303rd BGA > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:18:10 -0700 > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > I would like to get a copy of Target for Today also. I tried to call he > number Abbot Smith gave (below) but it has been disconnected. > Kevin, (or anyone) if you find where to order one, please post it > here. > > Regards to all ----- this list is great, isn't it! > > Hello All, > If you want to order the Video grab a credit card and call Zenith Books > at 1-800-826-6600, ask for "Target For Today" catalog number 109521C ONLY > $19.95. I have ordered plenty of books over the years from them and have > had quick service, Usually in your mailbox in a few days! And you will > start to receive their great catalog every few months loaded with 8th Air > Force books and anything aviation related. > Oh, Dad was a Ball Turret Gunner (Alfred Hollritt) with the 427th in > 1944, He lost not only his turret to the H2X radar dome, but his entire base > too when his crew relocated over to Chelveston with the 305th BG when they > started flying the new B-17G's equipped with radar. Dad can still remember > the real EARLY wake up call and short flight over to Molesworth to lead the > 303rd BG, And the loud Boo's as they entered the mess hall in thick fog. The > crews knew they would be flying in horrible weather now because their H2X > B-17G could still see the target for today. > Dad also remembers biking over to Thrapston to the local wireless store > and returning to his Quonset hut (Chelveston?) where he installed the > antenna and crystal set and wired the beds for the BBC radio station, What > really confused the other crews was why his crew kept their headsets after a > raid... That's what they used as headsets to listen in at each bedside! It > must have been a funny sight to the uninformed :) > > Todd- > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From Danger77@aol.com Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:29:51 EDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:29:51 EDT From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) In a message dated 8/17/00 10:11:00 PM, palidin@netzero.net writes: << We all knew him, sir, thank you for remembering him. >> He was my father, and he very suddenly died (9/49), when I was 4 & 1/2, of polio, while a student at the London School of Economics. Any memories of him would be a welcome gift. Also, my Uncle Barney (LT. Frederick B. Farrell) was in the 303rd briefly, and then in the 305th. Did anyone know him? Thanks. Larry Farrell Danger77@aol.com From palidin@netzero.net Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:27:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:27:27 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Dear Jim, got your ball turret response from the 303rd . Thank you for clarifiying some issues that I have been trying to come to grips with. Information that I have had indicated the the ball-turret gunner was the most vulnerable position as regards egress from a stricken plane. My dad told me that the ball turret gunner had a door to exit from in the turret. I thought that other crew members were responsible for helping the "belly gunner" to escape a stricken aircraft, and that there was no other salvation for you in a bad situation. Your comments are valuable to my understanding, and how I am able to pass the reality along. Safe Home, Jim. Lloyd Grant, (SOa427th) Jim Walling wrote: > I was a ball Turret Gunner and flew 35 1/2 missions for the 358th squadron between 26Nov44 and 20Mar45. I agree that the ball turret was (or seemed to be) the safest position on the plane. I weighed 128 lb and had no trouble keeping my chute on with the chest pack attached on one side. The one time my turret malfunctioned and I had to fly a waist gun position was one of my most frightening times. > > Jim Walling > > At 08:42 PM 8/16/00 EDT, you wrote: > >Our Ball Turret was William LaPerch and Bill Died a few months ago so I can't > >ask him. He was a great and talent person and I miss him. I have been in > >the ball but never flew in it. I believe it was the safest position in the > >B17. I would suspect we had less ball turret causalities than any other > >position. You could tip it up and open the door behind you and bail out > >without getting up into the airplane or you could tip it so the door opened > >into the waist and get out into the airplane. Bill was not exceptionally > >small and he wore his chest pack in the ball. If you had an electrical > >failure you could crank it by hand into any position you wanted to. No one > >was ever in it for landing and take off in their right mind. It Did NOT > >retract in the B17. If the door did ever get stuck another crew member could > >have chopped a hole in it with his hatchet in 5 minutes. > > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From Jprencher@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:39:52 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:39:52 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Kevin, Thank You, My address: Jack Rencher P.O. Box 7927 Boise, ID 83707-1927 From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:47:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:47:19 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video I was asked if Target for Today could be copied and sent to others. I would doubt it as I think the copyright on the movie has been extended to include present day. Sorry guys! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of IBSPEC@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 4:59 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video kevin can it be copied and sent to others? thanks for reply. ibspec@aol.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:51:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:51:26 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Some of you can not bring up the link I sent yesterday, re - Target for Today video. Go to www.amazon.com. at the opening screen, click on the "Video" icon at the top of the screen. On the upper left hand side of the next screen, you will see a blank box, with the word "Go" immediately to the right of the balnk box. Type "Target for Today" in the blank bos, then click the "Go" icon. Should take you right to it. Kevin From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:53:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:53:46 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hal: Why were you not welcome because you had a radar dome? I do not understand. Is it because that group might be lead on the next mission? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 7:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video I was the navigator for a 359th crew that was banished to the 305th in Late March of 1944. We replaced our best gunner, our BT with a radar dome. Anytime we showed up at a base in the middle of the night, we were as welcome as a skunk at a lawn party. And that included the 303rd BG. We finished our tour on D-Day. and were liberated. Give my regards to your dad. Hal Susskind _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:00:59 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:00:59 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Sychronizing Machine Guns/Redco Computing Site A couple of questions from one who was not there but is trying to fully understand (as difficult as that may seems). 1. I have heard the term synchronizing the machine guns. What does this mean? I am assuming it as for the Bendix Chin, TTG, and BTG positions. Did you try to get the guns to fire together or intermitently? 2. Can someone explain to me or tell me where I can read about the Redco Computing Gun site. I am assuming it took into account airspeed, delflection, etc. But how did it work? From Bhandsr@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:57:14 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:57:14 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hello, Todd.....good to see your voice in here. Hope all is well. Cheers, Bob Hand From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:12:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:12:03 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hi Kevin, I am still laughing at myself. I punched up your link to Amazon, and it said "Hello Gordon Alton, we have recommendations for you in books,.....etc." I hit 'books', and three of the four recommendations I already have. Guess that means I am reaching saturation point. One of the books that is there, for $33.56 (20% off) is "Vintage Aircraft Noseart", by Gary Valant. It was recommended to me by a noseart artist from the 91st, Charlie Busa. Charlie is a fine gentleman, who used to work hand in glove with Tony Starcer, in the dope and fabric shop at Bassingbourn. I pass on the recommendation to you. Well worth every penny, folks. Also, on the film side, you and any one else who is interested in the LtCol Paul Chryst (ret) video collection, you can get in touch with him at Paulnnance@aol.com . He would be glad to mail you his list of some 70 VHS tapes, which he copies for a small charge. It is not all 91st stuff, and is a varied and worthwhile collection. Gordy. ************************ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 6:51 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > Some of you can not bring up the link I sent yesterday, re - Target for > Today video. Go to www.amazon.com. at the opening screen, click on the > "Video" icon at the top of the screen. On the upper left hand side of the > next screen, you will see a blank box, with the word "Go" immediately to the > right of the balnk box. Type "Target for Today" in the blank bos, then > click the "Go" icon. Should take you right to it. > Kevin From susskind@webtv.net Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:38:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Kevin: I guess you took me lierally.. After our 16th mission with the 303rd, our crew minus the bombardier and the ball turret gunner were transferred to a PFF pool at the 305th at Chelveston After a month of training were alerted one night to go to the 303rd to lead them on a mission the next day. We only flew when the target was expected to be obscured and we would bomb by radar. In practically all cases we only bombed by radar over Germany. When the crews at the visiting bases saw us they knew it was going to be a long ass haul into Germany with a maximun gas load and putrid weather hence the other than warm greeting. We not only lead the 303rd but we also led the other groups in the 41st ombat wing. It was not uncommon for us to fly five missios to Berlin in a row and also to a place like Stettin which was a ten hour plus mission the only milk runs we flew was on D-Day and two days previous over France. Hope this explains my remark.. Hal Sussknd From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:45:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:45:39 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Harold, I have an email acquaintance from the 91st, who may have flown with you. His name is John Howland. Are you two aquatinted? I know he flew on the D-day mission as as PFF as well. Gordy. *************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 8:38 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > Kevin: I guess > you took me lierally.. After our 16th mission with the 303rd, our crew > minus the bombardier and the ball turret gunner were transferred to a > PFF pool at the 305th at Chelveston After a month of training were > alerted one night to go to the 303rd to lead them on a mission the next > day. We only flew when the target was expected to be obscured and we > would bomb by radar. In practically all cases we only bombed by radar > over Germany. When the crews at the visiting bases saw us they knew it > was going to be a long ass haul into Germany with a maximun gas load and > putrid weather hence the other than warm greeting. We not only lead the > 303rd but we also led the other groups in the 41st ombat wing. It was > not uncommon for us to fly five missios to Berlin in a row and also to > a place like Stettin which was a ten hour plus mission the only milk > runs we flew was on D-Day and two days previous over France. Hope this > explains my remark.. Hal Sussknd > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From Bhandsr@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:34:46 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:34:46 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Just when I thought Email was beginning to be routine and sometimes boring, along comes the 303rd Talk and it's a whole new world. Great hearing of the exploits and insights of those old days! Have a favor to ask...by way of a (another!) senior moment, I have temporarily misfiled my 303rd address book and recently saw the name Sydney Kallet listed as a new 303rd member. Nowhere can I find his address. This guy was a barracksmate in the 360th and he was a great friend. Can you give me his address? Would be most appreciative. For info: I was bombardier on Fink's Crew, flew 35 from Oct.'44 thru Feb.'45, last raid Berlin, 2/3/45. Thanks in advance.....good wishes and cheers....Bob Hand, Boynton Beach, FL. From susskind@webtv.net Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:20:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:20:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Gordy Sorry but I don't know John Howland. When the PFF pool was started inlate March of1944, each group sent over two crews. We were one of the two 303rd crews. The other groups in the 41st CBW each sent over two crews. When some of the crews from the 41st CBW were on pass we flew wth the 384th or the 379th but we never flew with anyone not in the 41st CBW hence I never knew anyone in the 91st, they were in another CBW. On D-Day since we had radar we bombed Caen thru the overcast. Hal Susskind From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:53:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:53:10 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hal: I've been to Bassingbourn, Grafton Underwood, Polebrook, Kimbolton and Chelveston in the last couple of years. It's very special to see these old bases. All in all I've been to 36 now! Can't seem to get enough! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Harold Susskind Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 1:27 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Gordy Sorry but I don't know John Howland. When the PFF pool was started inlate March of1944, each group sent over two crews. We were one of the two 303rd crews. The other groups in the 41st CBW each sent over two crews. When some of the crews from the 41st CBW were on pass we flew wth the 384th or the 379th but we never flew with anyone not in the 41st CBW hence I never knew anyone in the 91st, they were in another CBW. On D-Day since we had radar we bombed Caen thru the overcast. Hal Susskind _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:54:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:54:53 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0091A.DF1EA0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gordy:  Accidentally just deleted your new address.  Please send again.  Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:54 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I agree, Kevin.      I just watched it again, as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me a chance to catch up between naps and trips to the can.     The BTG  stance on "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That program makes it sound like the BTG was the most dangerous place on the plane. Statistics say it was the waist gunners who took the most casualties. They lacked armor around their positions. My dad always figured the engineer in the top turret was the most dangerous, because he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple of good friends who were TTGs.     Most crews were not trained in how to get the ball detached, and never had, or could find, the wrench to take it off anyway. I'm sure there were a few guys crushed in the ball when they couldn't get out. That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews liked to 'stick together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any easier to take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that way.     The commentator on that show was not too good, either, because he made it sound like a football game, with guys getting crunched, and rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace of the whole program is the combat footage, and the interviews with the vets. They deserved, and got, my respect. Gordy. ----- Original Message ----- From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com Not a word.  What could they say?  Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any response from the folks at the History Channel? Allen Miller   p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a shout!    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my opinion. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft.    -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill Owen    ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0091A.DF1EA0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Gordy:  Accidentally just deleted your = new=20 address.  Please send again.  Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Gordon Alton
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 = 3:54=20 PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: Re: = [303rd-Talk]=20 Ball Turret

    I agree, Kevin.
         I just = watched it again,=20 as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me a chance to catch up between = naps=20 and trips to the can.
        The BTG  = stance on=20 "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That program makes it sound like = the BTG=20 was the most dangerous place on the plane. Statistics say it was the = waist=20 gunners who took the most casualties. They lacked armor around their=20 positions. My dad always figured the engineer in the top turret was = the most=20 dangerous, because he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple = of good=20 friends who were TTGs.
        Most crews were = not trained in=20 how to get the ball detached, and never had, or could find, the wrench = to take=20 it off anyway. I'm sure there were a few guys crushed in the ball when = they=20 couldn't get out. That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews = liked=20 to 'stick together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any = easier to=20 take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that = way.
        The commentator on = that show=20 was not too good, either, because he made it sound like a football = game, with=20 guys getting crunched, and rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace of the = whole=20 program is the combat footage, and the interviews with the vets. They=20 deserved, and got, my respect.
    Gordy.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com

    Not a word.  What could they = say? =20 Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.c= om=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
    Sen= t:=20 Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject:=20 RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. = Did you get=20 any response from the folks at the History = Channel?
    Allen Miller
     
    p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer = (Dusty's=20 Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 = missions.=20 If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please = give me a=20 shout!
     
     -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com
    Sent: Thursday, = August=20 17, 2000 8:21 AM
    To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject:=20 RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    I have seen that show on Ball Turret = Gunners=20 and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several = times to the=20 History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG = look as=20 if he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to = more=20 danger than any other crew member.  My research indicates = BTGs had=20 fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think = about=20 it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller = target than=20 say a waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if = the turret=20 was jammed, there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could = jettison=20 from the escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was = in an=20 appropriate position, the crew could manually crank the turret = so the=20 hatch opened into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball = by=20 loosening the bolts holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG = could=20 then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very disappointed = in this=20 show.  Certainly there were cases where the ball was so = damaged=20 nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney = discuss one of=20 his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort = came in=20 with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, = it took=20 the entire crew, working together, to get through a = mission.  The=20 History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my=20 opinion.
    Kevin M. Pearson
    -----Original Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 allen@texasdirect.com
    Sent: Wednesday, August 16, = 2000 1:38=20 PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: = RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a = series on=20 the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the = few=20 programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on = B-17's. If=20 my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball = turret=20 gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be=20 retracted inside=20 the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there = was=20 somewhat less danger associated with that position in that = aircraft.=20
     
     -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Ball=20 Turret

    Are there any ball turret = gunners out=20 there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on = the=20 Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down = 6-25-43 and=20 my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like = being a=20 ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside = a B-17=20 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully = small. I=20 understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or = chute=20 because there was not enough room in the turret. I have = heard that=20 someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. = Is that=20 correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served = as=20 living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I = would assume=20 that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would = be=20 appreciated.  Thanks, Bill=20 = Owen   
    ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0091A.DF1EA0E0-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:07:38 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:07:38 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hi Hal: Thanks much for the clarrification. A very good friend of mine here in St. Joseph installed the very first H2S in a DeHavilland Mosquito - Ken Lux. Ken was with the 482nd at Aleconbury, and just this past December, I helped arrange a visit for him to tour his old base. Alconbury has now been leased to a private firm and they are turning it into an industrial estate and lorry park. I hate to see the old bases go this way, but I think we all will agree the present use is a much better one than that from which they were originally intended. Ken gave me a small book on The Pathfinder Force that I am now reading. I must say it is one of the very few areas I know little about. Although I've studied in depth the development of the 30 cm to 3 cm radar sets, I know little about the Pathfinders - training, deployment, etc. It is quite facinating. Ken even gave me some technical manuals on H2X. I still find it hard to comprehend technologies evolved at such a rapid rate during the war. Incredible achievements were the standard and not the norm almost on a day to day basis. I have to wonder if my generation could perform if that kind of situation ever arose. Has anyone ever heard of a Leaky Wave Guide - an antena mounted on an airplane that resembled a wing? According to Ken, this was a 3 cm radar set. Trying to find out more about this. It came out at the end of the war. Kevin From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:18:46 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:18:46 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) larry ,i hope you are a member of some classification of the 303rdbga. do join if you aren't. ibspec@aol.com From todd.hollritt@attws.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:57:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:57:31 -0400 From: Hollritt, Todd todd.hollritt@attws.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th PFF (Was Molesworth video) Hal, And all... Your post sounded very familiar! Do you recall that all the PFF crews wore a special marking on their uniforms? Dad's uniform jacket still has the blue square with gold trim behind his wings ( He wore this uniform at the Molesworth hanger dance and a couple of guys spotted it! He also danced with a local English girl he met that night - A little too realistic for some of the vets in attendance! ). Did you where this insignia on your flight suit's or A-2 also? As some of you know I am still trying to track down mission records for him, But here is one mission he recalls in detail. On July 22,1944 8TH AF Mission number 488 dispatched 7 B-17's on night leaflet raid (Every night the 8th sent out at least 4 or 6 into France on such raids). On this night four 306th BG B-17's and three 305th BG B-17's were sent all the way to BREMEN, HAMBURG and KEIL on a special night leaflet raid, It was right after the attempt on Hitler's life with the bomb blast in his bunker. Mission 489 that night included 7 more B-17's plus the normal NLS that made the usual run into Holland and France. Dad remembers his co-pilot Lt. Charles Gable (Alive and well in Pa.and Fla.) warning him right after the return from the day's raid that they were flying a NIGHT mission! He recalls flying in the tail for this one (H2X radar aircraft?) and using an aldiss lamp to flash the letter "G" out of the tail gunner's position so the other two B-17's could see them... The reason... The weather was horrible, It was completely overcast, Foggy and heavy rain the entire trip, He never saw the other aircraft after takeoff and for the rest of the mission! He did check out their cargo though, counterfeit money to disrupt the economy and leaflets announcing to the German people Hitler had been killed. Indeed this was very unique raid for him and his crew. He said his navigator Aloyiss Perro (He just found out about 303rd BG Hist.Soc. this year!) was one of the best and got them back home to England that night, It's also the reason they flew as lead crew on numerous raids. Many times with Col. Lew Lyle in the pilot's seat. At the short briefing they were told they would be receiving fighter escort for the mission , Something the 8th Air Force never performed at night! And according to Roger Freeman's 8th AF Diary the 4th FG dispatched 27 P-51's with them that night and two crashed separately killing one of the pilot's. Also this book states that one B-17 was also damaged during the mission. On our first return to England last September we returned to Chelveston in the early evening and as we traced our way around the perimeter of the former airbase now all you can see today are flocks of sheep roaming the former 305th BG airfield, You can always spot the old bomber bases as they usually covered the high flat ground, Sadly, one of the last visible reminder of the group, the large J-1 hanger had just been torn down a few weeks prior to our visit. 303rd veterans are very lucky and should be proud of how well Molesworth's J-1 has been taken care of by NATO today. We found our way into the cemetery church yard nearby where a large plaque on the side of the building is the last evidence that the Flying Fortress's of the Triangle G ever flew from here. It was as we were leaving the base that a heavy fog began to creep across and obscure the former runways that are now just long strips of grass, Dad again recalled that July night raid where just yesterday his B-17 sat here in the same conditions pointed down the runway preparing for that mission over Germany with him alone in the tail staring out at total darkness. Todd- The Pub around the corner from the base was a welcome sight that night and my Brother and I heard some great Hanger flying stories from Dad. Someday I have put our video tour on the market :-) This same day we had the opportunity to visit an Air Show at Duxford and the bases at Steeple Morden (P-51) Fowlmere (P-51) and Kimbolton (379th BG) finishing up at Chelveston (305th BG). From: susskind@webtv.net (Harold Susskind) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:38:28 -0500 (CDT) To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Cc: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Kevin: I guess you took me lierally.. After our 16th mission with the 303rd, our crew minus the bombardier and the ball turret gunner were transferred to a PFF pool at the 305th at Chelveston After a month of training were alerted one night to go to the 303rd to lead them on a mission the next day. We only flew when the target was expected to be obscured and we would bomb by radar. In practically all cases we only bombed by radar over Germany. When the crews at the visiting bases saw us they knew it was going to be a long ass haul into Germany with a maximun gas load and putrid weather hence the other than warm greeting. We not only lead the 303rd but we also led the other groups in the 41st ombat wing. It was not uncommon for us to fly five missios to Berlin in a row and also to a place like Stettin which was a ten hour plus mission the only milk runs we flew was on D-Day and two days previous over France. Hope this explains my remark.. Hal Sussknd From westwind@candw.ky Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:43:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:43:24 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) Does anyone know of Sgt. White of 358th during the years of 1942-43? Arni From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:38:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:38:00 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th PFF (Was Molesworth video) Todd, This is an excellent post. It is printing out as I type. Please convey to your, father, as well, how appreciative we all are for the memories. Thanks. Gordy ************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th PFF (Was Molesworth video) > Hal, And all... > Your post sounded very familiar! Do you recall that all the PFF crews > wore a special marking on their uniforms? Dad's uniform jacket still has the . . . . . . . . . . . . From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:42:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:42:48 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Flight to Israel I have been asked to pass this on, for those who are not aware. If you are able to participate, Zvi is anxious for some bodies to fill the seats. This is for real, folks. Please contact Zvi personally, but let him know I sent you, so he knows where it came from. Gordy. ************************* To all B-17 crews wherever they are: The Flight of the Septuagenarians A group of aircrew from the "69 Squadron Association" I.A.F is planning to fly a completely restored B-17, by courtesy of The Boeing Company to Israel. This flight will retrack the original flight of the 3 "Flying Fortresses", which were "purloined" from "Uncle Sam" (elegantly said) back in 1948. The plane will be manned with the original crews, all in their 70's, who flew the B-17 in 69 Sq. until 1956. The Commanding Officer of the I.A.F Maj.Gen. Dan Halutz, who is hosting this event, extends an invitation to all aircrews, worldwide, who flew in the B-17 at any time, anywhere, to take part in this unique historical event. This ceremony is scheduled in spring 2001, as a "Salute to B-17 Aircrews of All times" at the I.A.F. Museum at Hatzerim, Israel. If you wish to attend this event, please send your name, crew position and some verifications to the initiator of this scheme: Mr. Zvi Avidror, 1 Brazil Str. Tel-Aviv 69460, Israel. Tel/fax 972-3-6422480. E-mail: avidror@inter.net.il. Best regards, Eliezer Adar Zvi Avidror From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:54:19 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:54:19 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] (no subject) does anyone know of joseph e. burke or john d. chase or jack chase whose dad was a general in air force and he an. aviation cadet at santa anna ,calif along with burke and i also there. further does anyone have knowledge of eugene halonen ,a copilot and milton syzmanski ,navigator on pilot lonski's crew ,both of whom remained in military service after wwii? ibspec@aol.com(donald o."SPEC" campen,jr.) From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:25:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:25:27 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Hi Hal, He flew with the 381st, and they often flew PFF for the 91st, or based themselves out of Bassingbourn to lead the 1st Combat Bombardment Wing (H), or the 1st Division, I think. I hope I have my facts straight, but I'd have to double check with John for sure. I am not 100% sure just when he entered the picture, but I believe it was fairly early on, when groups became wings, which became divisions, etc. That is how I came to know him, through my connections with the 91st. As an aside, if anyone wants copies of "Serenade to a Big Bird", by Bert Stiles, a 91st pilot killed near the end of the war, John still has some copies for sale. . Bert wrote one of the most recognized books on the B17 ever written. I just ordered one today ($21.50, incl. ship.), because a friend keeps referring to his (Chris J. take that!!!!!), and it is one I need. I should have gotten it a long time ago. I don't know how many he has left, so contact me off list, and I'll check with him later to see if he can supply, then get back to you. Gordy. ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video > Gordy Sorry but I > don't know John Howland. When the PFF pool was started inlate March > of1944, each group sent over two crews. We were one of the two 303rd > crews. The other groups in the 41st CBW each sent over two crews. When > some of the crews from the 41st CBW were on pass we flew wth the 384th > or the 379th but we never flew with anyone not in the 41st CBW hence I > never knew anyone in the 91st, they were in another CBW. On D-Day > since we had radar we bombed Caen thru the overcast. Hal Susskind From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:27:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:27:19 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C00928.CC239640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No prob. Gordon Alton 134 Woodland Drive Salt Spring Island, BC Can. V8K1K1 ****************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com=20 To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com=20 Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Gordy: Accidentally just deleted your new address. Please send = again. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:54 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I agree, Kevin. I just watched it again, as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives = me a chance to catch up between naps and trips to the can. The BTG stance on "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That = program makes it sound like the BTG was the most dangerous place on the = plane. Statistics say it was the waist gunners who took the most = casualties. They lacked armor around their positions. My dad always = figured the engineer in the top turret was the most dangerous, because = he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple of good friends who = were TTGs. Most crews were not trained in how to get the ball detached, and = never had, or could find, the wrench to take it off anyway. I'm sure = there were a few guys crushed in the ball when they couldn't get out. = That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews liked to 'stick = together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any easier to = take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that way. The commentator on that show was not too good, either, because = he made it sound like a football game, with guys getting crunched, and = rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace of the whole program is the combat = footage, and the interviews with the vets. They deserved, and got, my = respect. Gordy. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com=20 Not a word. What could they say? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you = get any response from the folks at the History Channel? Allen Miller p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer = (Dusty's Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 = missions. If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, = please give me a shout! -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of = kpearson@saintjoseph.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very = disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History = Channel and the producers. The show made the BTG look as if he was the = most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any = other crew member. My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than = several other crew positions. Think about it. He was curled up in a = little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot. = The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape. = Boloney!! He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind = him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could = manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew = could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the = ship. The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him. I was very = disappointed in this show. Certainly there were cases where the ball = was so damaged nothing could be done. And I have heard Andy Rooney = discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and = a Fort came in with a trapped BTG. Flying combat was not a one man = show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a = mission. The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my = opinion. Kevin M. Pearson -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series = on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions". Among the few = programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my = memory is correct, the program briefly addresses ball turret gunners on = B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the = fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not), so there was somewhat less = danger associated with that position in that aircraft.=20 -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] = Ball Turret Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, = Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th = Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am = curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had = the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that = the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not = wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the = turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of = the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts = that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I = would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input = would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill Owen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C00928.CC239640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    No prob.
    Gordon Alton
    134 Woodland Drive
    Salt Spring Island, BC Can. = V8K1K1
    ******************************************
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com =
    Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 = 11:54=20 AM
    Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball=20 Turret

    Gordy:  Accidentally just deleted your = new=20 address.  Please send again.  Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.c= om=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon=20 Alton
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:54 = PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject:=20 Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    I agree, Kevin.
         I just = watched it=20 again, as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me a chance to catch = up=20 between naps and trips to the can.
        The BTG  = stance on=20 "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That program makes it sound = like the=20 BTG was the most dangerous place on the plane. Statistics say it was = the=20 waist gunners who took the most casualties. They lacked armor around = their=20 positions. My dad always figured the engineer in the top turret was = the most=20 dangerous, because he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a = couple of=20 good friends who were TTGs.
        Most crews were = not trained=20 in how to get the ball detached, and never had, or could find, the = wrench to=20 take it off anyway. I'm sure there were a few guys crushed in the = ball when=20 they couldn't get out. That would be a real tough way to go, being = as crews=20 liked to 'stick together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make = it any=20 easier to take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that=20 way.
        The commentator = on that show=20 was not too good, either, because he made it sound like a football = game,=20 with guys getting crunched, and rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace = of the=20 whole program is the combat footage, and the interviews with the = vets. They=20 deserved, and got, my respect.
    Gordy.
    ----- Original Message ----- =
    From:=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com =

    Not a word.  What could they = say? =20 Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.c= om=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
    Sen= t:=20 Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject:=20 RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. = Did you=20 get any response from the folks at the History=20 Channel?
    Allen Miller
     
    p.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top = turret/engineer (Dusty's=20 Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 = missions.=20 If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please = give me=20 a shout!
     
     -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 kpearson@saintjoseph.com
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, = 2000 8:21=20 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    I have seen that show on Ball = Turret Gunners=20 and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several = times to=20 the History Channel and the producers.  The show made the = BTG=20 look as if he was the most important crew member, that he was = exposed=20 to more danger than any other crew member.  My research = indicates=20 BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew = positions. =20 Think about it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a = much=20 smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot.  The = show goes=20 on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape.  = Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch = immedicately=20 behind him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the = crew=20 could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the = ship, or=20 the crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts = holding the=20 ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch = behind=20 him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  = Certainly there=20 were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be = done. =20 And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first days in = theater=20 when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a trapped=20 BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the = entire=20 crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The = History=20 Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my=20 opinion.
    Kevin M. = Pearson
    -----Original Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of=20 allen@texasdirect.com
    Sent: Wednesday, August 16, = 2000=20 1:38 PM
    To: = 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: RE:=20 [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret

    Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is = a series=20 on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  = Among the=20 few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners = on=20 B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly = addresses=20 ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball = could be=20 retracted=20 inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  = so there=20 was somewhat less danger associated with that position in = that=20 aircraft.
     
     -----Original=20 Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com=20 Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball = Turret

    Are there any ball turret = gunners out=20 there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret = on the=20 Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down = 6-25-43=20 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was = like=20 being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to = be=20 inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the = turret was=20 awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear = a flak=20 jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the = turret. I=20 have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and = out of the=20 turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the = Nissen huts=20 that served as living quarters. How many people did they=20 accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share = the same=20 hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill=20 = Owen   
    ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C00928.CC239640-- From Danger77@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:17:48 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:17:48 EDT From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) In a message dated 8/18/00 2:20:35 PM, IBSPEC@aol.com writes: << larry ,i hope you are a member of some classification of the 303rdbga. do join if you aren't. ibspec@aol.com >> I was asked to join this group by, I believe, the moderator-what exactly do you wish that I do? Larry Farrell, Jr. From susskind@webtv.net Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:41:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:41:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 305th PFF (Was Molesworth video) Our crew never wore that blue background for our wings. Soon after the order was recinded because it never accomplished what it was supossed to; whatever that was. I never flew any night leaflet missions although a squadron in the 305th did. In July 0f '44 I was in New York city in between tours. I separated from the service in 1946 was recalled in 1949 and retired in 1973. Hal Susskind From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:26:21 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:26:21 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) larry farrell ,jr. go to this 303rdbga website and click on membership heading to get complete info as to becoming a member. glad to get your response to my email. i will send copy of your email to ed miller ,membership chm. of 303rdbga. good to have your dedicated interest in our mission. ibspec@aol.com(donald o. "SPEC" campen,jr. ,member) From IBSPEC@aol.com Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:02:32 EDT Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:02:32 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) what is the full wording across top edge of cambridge cemetery wall of missing? thanks. ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:03:36 EDT Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:03:36 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) how many of our's buried there? is there a listing in our website? ibspec@aol.com From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:32:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:32:21 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ABMC Home Page Click on this site, and then go to the proper page, to check for Cambridge, etc. This site is quite comprehensive, and will give you all you need to know on American casualties and cemeteries. Gordy. http://www.usabmc.com/ From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:32:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:32:59 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] PFF training Training for the PFF crews for the first division, by Mar. of 1944, was headquartered at Chelveston, with the 305th. Some of the training was in anticipation of D-Day. It was commanded by Curtis Lemay until he left that spring to command the 3rd Division. Gordy. From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:09:51 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:09:51 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 2LT. Larry Farrell, 359th BS (Sanford Smith's Crew) No one ever dies, Danger, they just live. God keep your father in your memory. Lloyd. Danger77@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/17/00 10:11:00 PM, palidin@netzero.net writes: > > << We all knew him, sir, thank you for remembering him. > >> > > He was my father, and he very suddenly died (9/49), when I was 4 & 1/2, of > polio, while a student at the London School of Economics. Any memories of him > would be a welcome gift. > > Also, my Uncle Barney (LT. Frederick B. Farrell) was in the 303rd briefly, > and then in the 305th. Did anyone know him? > > Thanks. > > Larry Farrell > Danger77@aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:17:00 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:17:00 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Jack, I have been a maverick with my questions. They are sincerely asked, even when they tred on sad memories, and moments you would like to forget. I have learned alot from talking with you. Thanks, Jack. Jprencher@aol.com wrote: > Kevin, Thank You, My address: > Jack Rencher > P.O. Box 7927 > Boise, ID 83707-1927 > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:29:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:29:49 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Sychronizing Machine Guns/Redco Computing Site This is an exellent question. I too ,am asking related questions. I hope you recieve a response tangent to reality. But remember, these men were kids in their twenties at the time, now they are not kids. We are. Lloyd. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > A couple of questions from one who was not there but is trying to fully > understand (as difficult as that may seems). > 1. I have heard the term synchronizing the machine guns. What does this > mean? I am assuming it as for the Bendix Chin, TTG, and BTG positions. Did > you try to get the guns to fire together or intermitently? > 2. Can someone explain to me or tell me where I can read about the Redco > Computing Gun site. I am assuming it took into account airspeed, > delflection, etc. But how did it work? > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:43:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:43:54 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Sir, thank you.  you have provided another insight to the reality of fact vs. fiction.  This was a question  that has worried me.  Lloyd Grant.

    kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote:

    Gordy:  Accidentally just deleted your new address.  Please send again.  Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Alton
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 3:54 PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret
     
    I agree, Kevin.     I just watched it again, as I am home sick. Not nice, but gives me a chance to catch up between naps and trips to the can.    The BTG  stance on "Suicide Missions" is very one sided. That program makes it sound like the BTG was the most dangerous place on the plane. Statistics say it was the waist gunners who took the most casualties. They lacked armor around their positions. My dad always figured the engineer in the top turret was the most dangerous, because he saw two guys get killed there, and lost a couple of good friends who were TTGs.    Most crews were not trained in how to get the ball detached, and never had, or could find, the wrench to take it off anyway. I'm sure there were a few guys crushed in the ball when they couldn't get out. That would be a real tough way to go, being as crews liked to 'stick together'. It was rare, though, but it doesn't make it any easier to take if you were forced to see it or lose a friend that way.    The commentator on that show was not too good, either, because he made it sound like a football game, with guys getting crunched, and rah, rah, rah. The only saving grace of the whole program is the combat footage, and the interviews with the vets. They deserved, and got, my respect.Gordy.
    ----- Original Message -----
     Not a word.  What could they say?  Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:37 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret
     
    Hi Kevin, I appreciate the feedback, very informative. Did you get any response from the folks at the History Channel?Allen Millerp.s. My dad (Clifton Miller) was the top turret/engineer (Dusty's Dome) on Embry's crew, 359th "Sweet LaRhonda" and completed 35 missions. If anyone out there knew him or anyone else on his crew, please give me a shout!-----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of kpearson@saintjoseph.com
    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 8:21 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret
     
    I have seen that show on Ball Turret Gunners and was very disappointed, so much so, that I wrote several times to the History Channel and the producers.  The show made the BTG look as if he was the most important crew member, that he was exposed to more danger than any other crew member.  My research indicates BTGs had fewer casualites than several other crew positions.  Think about it.  He was curled up in a little ball, a much smaller target than say a waist gunner or pilot.  The show goes on to say if the turret was jammed, there was no escape.  Boloney!!  He could jettison from the escape hatch immedicately behind him if the turret was in an appropriate position, the crew could manually crank the turret so the hatch opened into the ship, or the crew could jettison the ball by loosening the bolts holding the ball to the ship.  The BTG could then get out the hatch behind him.  I was very disappointed in this show.  Certainly there were cases where the ball was so damaged nothing could be done.  And I have heard Andy Rooney discuss one of his first days in theater when he was at an aerodrome and a Fort came in with a trapped BTG.  Flying combat was not a one man show, it took the entire crew, working together, to get through a mission.  The History Channel gets a failing grade for this show in my opinion.Kevin M. Pearson
    -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of allen@texasdirect.com
    Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:38 PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret
     
    Hi Bill, I'm not a ball turret gunner, but there is a series on the History Channel called "Suicide Missions".  Among the few programs I have seen, one is about ball turret gunners on B-17's. If my memory is correct, the program  briefly addresses ball turret gunners on B-24's but points out that the ball could be retracted inside the fuselage if need be (the B-17 could not),  so there was somewhat less danger associated with that position in that aircraft. -----Original Message-----
    From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret
     
    Are there any ball turret gunners out there? My brother, Burl Owen, was in the ball turret on the Joseph Palmer crew (360th Squadron). They were shot down 6-25-43 and my brother was KIA. I am curious to know what it was like being a ball turret gunner. I have had the opportunity to be inside a B-17 and look it over. Seems to me that the turret was awfully small. I understand that the gunner could not wear a flak jacket or chute because there was not enough room in the turret. I have heard that someone had to help the gunner into and out of the turret. Is that correct? I am also curious about the Nissen huts that served as living quarters. How many people did they accomodate? I would assume that several crews could share the same hut. Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks, Bill Owen
    _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From owen26@tucomm.net Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:14:13 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:14:13 -0500 From: Bill Owen owen26@tucomm.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C00A7E.A038ADC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to thank all of you who responded to my question about what it = was like to be in the ball turret. I now know a lot more than I did but = I would like to know how it operated. Seems that to move it in all = different directions, aim and fire all at the same time would have taken = at least four hands and a lot of coordination. Seems also that it would = be difficult to hit a target since the turret had to be moved = mechanically. The other gunners could swing their weapon, point and = shoot similar to shooting a rifle. Was it difficult to get the ball to = move easily enough to track the target? Just curious. Bill Owen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C00A7E.A038ADC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I want to thank all of you who = responded to my=20 question about what it was like to be in the ball turret. I now = know a lot=20 more than I did but I would like to know how it operated. Seems that to = move it=20 in all different directions, aim and fire all at the same time = would have=20 taken at least four hands and a lot of coordination. Seems also that it = would be=20 difficult to hit a target since the turret had to be moved mechanically. = The other gunners could swing their weapon, point and shoot = similar to=20 shooting a rifle. Was it difficult to get the ball to = move easily=20 enough to track the target? Just curious.
    Bill=20 Owen    
    ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C00A7E.A038ADC0-- From jody53@webtv.net Sun, 20 Aug 2000 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Dyle Davidson jody53@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret --WebTV-Mail-11750-466 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your inquiry of 3 days ago, because you got me scratching my head----is that right or was it something else ? I would like to very accurate in what I say and I was hoping someone would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine and answer your questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the turret controls , as well as the guns were the same "handle".The turret operated up and down, as well as the speed of the ball rotation---everything was done in coordination and easily so in tracking fighters though your 'window' which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in a very comfortable position with your hands doing all the work. It's 40* below centigrade ,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still cold, if you recline too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated top burn your back. . Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, correct me or add to what I said. Thank you for your interest. Dyle Davidson --WebTV-Mail-11750-466 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit GOD BLESS AMERICA ! --WebTV-Mail-11750-466-- From mail148779@pop.net Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:03:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:03:26 -0400 From: Matt Petersen mail148779@pop.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] This is great! Hi, My father (John N. Petersen) was a pilot with the 358th. He flew a plane called Paper Dolly. I was amazed to find him in a crew photo on the 303rd web site. Truly a pleasure, Matt Petersen From jimwall@ilhawaii.net Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 From: Jim Walling jimwall@ilhawaii.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret Dyle, Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal controlled the width of the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the wingspan of the attacking plane and enable the sight to compute the range. This along with the tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to compute the lead. As I recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the ring sight was "three rads lead". Regards, Jim Walling At 07:28 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>> Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your inquiry of 3 days ago, because you got me scratching my head----is that right or was it something else ? I would like to very accurate in what I say and I was hoping someone would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine and answer your questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the turret controls , as well as the guns were the same "handle".The turret operated up and down, as well as the speed of the ball rotation---everything was done in coordination and easily so in tracking fighters though your 'window' which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in a very comfortable position with your hands doing all the work. It's 40* below centigrade ,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still cold, if you recline too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated top burn your back. . Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, correct me or add to what I said. Thank you for your interest. Dyle Davidson GOD BLESS AMERICA ! <<<<<<<< From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:43:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:43:04 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Madingley The cemetery contains the graves of 3,812 Americans; on the Tables of the Missing, which makes up the 427 foot-long southern wall, are the names of 5,126 who gave their lives but whose remains have not been recovered or identified, including one recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor, and subsequent identifications marked by an asterisk. Here is what is inscribed on the ceiling mozaic in the Chapel: "In proud and grateful memory of those men of the U.S. Army Air Force and who from these friendly isles flew their final flights and met their God. They knew not the hour the day or the manner of their passing. When far from home they were called to join that heroic band of airman who have gone before. May they rest in peace." Wish I could help with the wording on the Tables of the Missing. For a picture tour of Madingley and the Madingley website, visit: http://www.freezone.co.uk/tomfeise/455th/madingl0.htm I have been to no more somber place, nor have I ever been affected more by a cemetery. than at Madingley. Kevin From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:53:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:53:38 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill:  I was not there nor have I ever operated one, but have read quite a bit about them.  The turret was operated by both hands and feet  Feet controlling the horizontal rotation of the ball and hands controlling the vertical rotation.  A trigger was mounted on the right hand controller.  With a little practice, I have been told the turret was quite responsive.  I have been told by the Luftwaffee they respected the ball so much they always tried to close from above.  At many of the old airfield, you will see buildings with high ceilings (50') with a foot print of about 35' x 35'.  At first blush this might seem like a parachute room, but it was a practice room for the BT.  A BT was rigged up on a stationary platform and a movie projector flashed around the room pics of a/c.  I have heard after five hours in the simulator, a gunner could become quite good. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Owen Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:16 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret I want to thank all of you who responded to my question about what it was like to be in the ball turret. I now know a lot more than I did but I would like to know how it operated. Seems that to move it in all different directions, aim and fire all at the same time would have taken at least four hands and a lot of coordination. Seems also that it would be difficult to hit a target since the turret had to be moved mechanically. The other gunners could swing their weapon, point and shoot similar to shooting a rifle. Was it difficult to get the ball to move easily enough to track the target? Just curious. Bill Owen     ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Bill:  I was not there nor have I ever = operated=20 one, but have read quite a bit about them.  The turret was operated = by both=20 hands and feet  Feet controlling the horizontal rotation of the = ball and=20 hands controlling the vertical rotation.  A trigger was mounted on = the=20 right hand controller.  With a little practice, I have been told = the turret=20 was quite responsive.  I have been told by the Luftwaffee they = respected=20 the ball so much they always tried to close from above.  At many of = the old=20 airfield, you will see buildings with high ceilings (50') with a foot = print of=20 about 35' x 35'.  At first blush this might seem like a parachute = room, but=20 it was a practice room for the BT.  A BT was rigged up on a = stationary=20 platform and a movie projector flashed around the room pics of = a/c.  I have=20 heard after five hours in the simulator, a gunner could become quite=20 good.
    Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Bill Owen
    Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:16=20 AM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com
    Subject: = [303rd-Talk] ball=20 turret

    I want to thank all of you who = responded to my=20 question about what it was like to be in the ball turret. I now = know a=20 lot more than I did but I would like to know how it operated. Seems = that to=20 move it in all different directions, aim and fire all at the same = time=20 would have taken at least four hands and a lot of coordination. Seems = also=20 that it would be difficult to hit a target since the turret had to be = moved=20 mechanically. The other gunners could swing their weapon, = point and=20 shoot similar to shooting a rifle. Was it difficult to get the = ball to=20 move easily enough to track the target? Just = curious.
    Bill=20 Owen    
    ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20-- From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:17:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:17:04 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C00B50.258D99A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim:  I must have received the wrong information on the operation of the BT.  Sorry guys!  Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jim Walling Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 1:54 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ball turret Dyle, Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal controlled the width of the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the wingspan of the attacking plane and enable the sight to compute the range. This along with the tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to compute the lead. As I recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the ring sight was "three rads lead". Regards, Jim Walling At 07:28 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>> Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your inquiry of 3 days ago, because you got me scratching my head----is that right or was it something else ? I would like to very accurate in what I say and I was hoping someone would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine and answer your questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the turret controls , as well as the guns were the same "handle".The turret operated up and down, as well as the speed of the ball rotation---everything was done in coordination and easily so in tracking fighters though your 'window' which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in a very comfortable position with your hands doing all the work. It's 40* below centigrade ,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still cold, if you recline too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated top burn your back. . Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, correct me or add to what I said. Thank you for your interest. Dyle Davidson GOD BLESS AMERICA ! <<<< _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C00B50.258D99A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Jim:  I must have received the wrong = information=20 on the operation of the BT.  Sorry guys!  = Kevin
    -----Original Message-----
    From:=20 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com = [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On=20 Behalf Of Jim Walling
    Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 1:54 = PM
    To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com
    Subject: Re: = [303rd-Talk]=20 ball turret

    Dyle,

    Your hands did not do all = the=20 work. A foot pedal controlled the width of the lighted reticle on the = sight to=20 frame the wingspan of the attacking plane and enable the sight to = compute the=20 range. This along with the tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the = sight to=20 compute the lead. As I recall, the rule for the hand held guns with = the ring=20 sight was "three rads lead".

    Regards, Jim Walling


    At = 07:28=20 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote:
    >>>>
    Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your inquiry of 3 days = ago,=20 because
    you got me scratching my head----is that right or was it = something else
    ?
    I would like to very accurate in what I say = and I=20 was hoping someone
    would jump in there with a sharper memory = than mine=20 and answer your
    questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- = the=20 turret controls ,
    as well as the guns were the same "handle".The = turret=20 operated up and
    down, as well as the speed of the ball=20 rotation---everything was done in
    coordination and easily so in = tracking=20 fighters though your 'window'
    which was the gunsight. You are=20 reclining/sitting in a very comfortable
    position with your hands = doing=20 all the work. It's 40* below centigrade
    ,your heated suit is at = maximum=20 high and your still cold, if you recline
    too hard you will feel = the hot=20 wires of the heated top burn your back. .
    Now Bill , I hope some = other=20 BTG will jump in here, correct me or
    add to what I said. =
    Thank you=20 for your interest.
    Dyle Davidson

    GOD BLESS AMERICA !=20 =
    <<<<



    ________________________= _______________________=20 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com=20 http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk =
    ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C00B50.258D99A0-- From bagnoli2@yahoo.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Golden bagnoli2@yahoo.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #24 - 5 msgs Tables of the Missing at Cambridge Cemetary... I live about ten minutes from there, in fact I drove right past it about fifteen minutes ago (before reading this). I'll go back over there first chance and pass along the wording. Anything else folks would like to find out about there let me know and I'll gladly oblige. Chuck Golden, LCDR, USNR --- 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. This is great! (Matt Petersen) > 2. Re: ball turret (Jim Walling) > 3. RE: Madingley (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > 4. RE: ball turret (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > 5. RE: ball turret (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Matt Petersen" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:03:26 -0400 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] This is great! > > Hi, > > My father (John N. Petersen) was a pilot with > the 358th. He flew a plane > called Paper Dolly. I was amazed to find him in a > crew photo on the 303rd > web site. > > Truly a pleasure, > Matt Petersen > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > From: Jim Walling > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dyle, > > > Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal > controlled the width of > the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the > wingspan of the attacking > plane and enable the sight to compute the range. > This along with the > tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to > compute the lead. As I > recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the > ring sight was "three > rads lead". > > > Regards, Jim Walling > > > > At 07:28 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >>>> > > Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your > inquiry of 3 days ago, > because > > you got me scratching my head----is that right or > was it something else > > ? > > I would like to very accurate in what I say and I > was hoping someone > > would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine > and answer your > > questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the > turret controls , > > as well as the guns were the same "handle".The > turret operated up and > > down, as well as the speed of the ball > rotation---everything was done in > > coordination and easily so in tracking fighters > though your 'window' > > which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in > a very comfortable > > position with your hands doing all the work. It's > 40* below centigrade > > ,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still > cold, if you recline > > too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated > top burn your back. . > > Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, > correct me or > > add to what I said. > > Thank you for your interest. > > Dyle Davidson > > > GOD BLESS AMERICA ! > > <<<<<<<< > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Madingley > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:43:04 -0500 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > The cemetery contains the graves of 3,812 Americans; > on the Tables of the > Missing, which makes up the 427 foot-long southern > wall, are the names of > 5,126 who gave their lives but whose remains have > not been recovered or > identified, including one recipient of the > Congressional Medal of Honor, and > subsequent identifications marked by an asterisk. > > Here is what is inscribed on the ceiling mozaic in > the Chapel: > > "In proud and grateful memory of those men of the > U.S. Army Air Force and > who from these friendly isles flew their final > flights and met their God. > They knew not the hour the day or the manner of > their passing. When far > from home they were called to join that heroic band > of airman who have gone > before. May they rest in peace." > > Wish I could help with the wording on the Tables of > the Missing. > > For a picture tour of Madingley and the Madingley > website, visit: > > http://www.freezone.co.uk/tomfeise/455th/madingl0.htm > > I have been to no more somber place, nor have I ever > been affected more by a > cemetery. than at Madingley. > Kevin > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:53:38 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20 > Content-Type: text/plain; > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:48:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:48:34 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #24 - 5 msgs Chuck: I would give anything to live in East Anglia. Do you frequent the Eagle in Cambridge? Great place! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Golden Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:34 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #24 - 5 msgs Tables of the Missing at Cambridge Cemetary... I live about ten minutes from there, in fact I drove right past it about fifteen minutes ago (before reading this). I'll go back over there first chance and pass along the wording. Anything else folks would like to find out about there let me know and I'll gladly oblige. Chuck Golden, LCDR, USNR --- 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com wrote: > Send 303rd-Talk mailing list submissions to > 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > 303rd-talk-request@303rdBGA.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of 303rd-Talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. This is great! (Matt Petersen) > 2. Re: ball turret (Jim Walling) > 3. RE: Madingley (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > 4. RE: ball turret (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > 5. RE: ball turret (kpearson@saintjoseph.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Matt Petersen" > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:03:26 -0400 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > Subject: [303rd-Talk] This is great! > > Hi, > > My father (John N. Petersen) was a pilot with > the 358th. He flew a plane > called Paper Dolly. I was amazed to find him in a > crew photo on the 303rd > web site. > > Truly a pleasure, > Matt Petersen > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > From: Jim Walling > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dyle, > > > Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal > controlled the width of > the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the > wingspan of the attacking > plane and enable the sight to compute the range. > This along with the > tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to > compute the lead. As I > recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the > ring sight was "three > rads lead". > > > Regards, Jim Walling > > > > At 07:28 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >>>> > > Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your > inquiry of 3 days ago, > because > > you got me scratching my head----is that right or > was it something else > > ? > > I would like to very accurate in what I say and I > was hoping someone > > would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine > and answer your > > questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the > turret controls , > > as well as the guns were the same "handle".The > turret operated up and > > down, as well as the speed of the ball > rotation---everything was done in > > coordination and easily so in tracking fighters > though your 'window' > > which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in > a very comfortable > > position with your hands doing all the work. It's > 40* below centigrade > > ,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still > cold, if you recline > > too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated > top burn your back. . > > Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, > correct me or > > add to what I said. > > Thank you for your interest. > > Dyle Davidson > > > GOD BLESS AMERICA ! > > <<<<<<<< > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Madingley > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:43:04 -0500 > charset="iso-8859-1" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > The cemetery contains the graves of 3,812 Americans; > on the Tables of the > Missing, which makes up the 427 foot-long southern > wall, are the names of > 5,126 who gave their lives but whose remains have > not been recovered or > identified, including one recipient of the > Congressional Medal of Honor, and > subsequent identifications marked by an asterisk. > > Here is what is inscribed on the ceiling mozaic in > the Chapel: > > "In proud and grateful memory of those men of the > U.S. Army Air Force and > who from these friendly isles flew their final > flights and met their God. > They knew not the hour the day or the manner of > their passing. When far > from home they were called to join that heroic band > of airman who have gone > before. May they rest in peace." > > Wish I could help with the wording on the Tables of > the Missing. > > For a picture tour of Madingley and the Madingley > website, visit: > > http://www.freezone.co.uk/tomfeise/455th/madingl0.htm > > I have been to no more somber place, nor have I ever > been affected more by a > cemetery. than at Madingley. > Kevin > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com > To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> > Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:53:38 -0500 > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20" > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C00B4C.DEDE3B20 > Content-Type: text/plain; > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From westwind@candw.ky Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:19:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:19:33 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] Talk Does anyone know the whereabouts of the following fella's I served with in the 358th during 1943-44? Richard L. Kruse, Col. Charles Marion, C.H. Morales, M.R. Hungerford Louis Benepe and R.E. McElwain. Would appreciate any news of them. Arni L. Sumarlidason From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:34:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:34:10 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat Hi gang: Here is a subject I have not seen mentioned in these chat rooms. I have interviewed literlly hundreds of aircrews over the years, and the one thing that I have always picked up on is that those crews who were deeply religious are the ones who dealt with air combat the best and made it home. It seems the ones who were not all that religious went down. Any thoughts on this from those who were there? Kevin From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:46:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:46:14 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe We all know the P-51 is considered the best all around fighter of the Second World War, but I have another theory that is "outside the box." Picture this! What if the P-38 lost those Allison liquid-cooled engines and were replaced by Roll Royce Merlins or Packard-built Griffons? Lockheed did make a prototype of this machine, and it was far superior to the P-51 in service ceiling, speed, and manuverability, which is hard to believe. The downside was the cost of making the modifications, and the time to tool-up at that late stage of the war. Any comments? From susskind@webtv.net Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:16:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:16:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Talk Col. Charles "Chuck" Marion died in Austin, Texas. date unknown. For some reason, I couldn't get him to join the Association even though I send him the newsletter when I was the editor. Hal Susskind From IBSPEC@aol.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:49:44 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:49:44 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] This is great! matt truly pray you will promptly join as a member of the 303rdbga. see membership info at top of our site. ewe need your family concerns as person to help us who are dying at 1000 per day to keep this great true story of our freedom alive for generations. you have a real reason to join us. do it now and thanks for your continuing unteresrs. ibspec@aol.com From IBSPEC@aol.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:59:37 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:59:37 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Talk georgia, are you a member of any category in 303rdbga. if not ,please see membership info at top of site. join us now ,we welcome members to help us keep this true great story alive. join now. ibspec@aol.com From Bhandsr@aol.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:41:32 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:41:32 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat Above all, you had to believe in yourself...take every precaution...help those in need....and yes, pray if you had a mind to. From the IP on in, there wasn't time to think of praying, I recall, but then I did thank the Almighty once it was over. Cheers, Bob Hand From Danger77@aol.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:12:33 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:12:33 EDT From: Danger77@aol.com Danger77@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe In a message dated 8/21/00 4:47:22 PM, kpearson@saintjoseph.com writes: << Lockheed did make a prototype of this machine, and it was far superior to the P-51 in service ceiling, speed, and manuverability, which is hard to believe. >> Please tell me me more; model, name, specs., etc. From westwind@candw.ky Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:02:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:02:18 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] Talk Thanks for the invitation to join, however, my connection to the 303rd is through Arni Sumarlidason. I relay the e-mail messages to him and will accompany him again to the convention. -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdbga.com]On Behalf Of IBSPEC@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 5:00 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Talk georgia, are you a member of any category in 303rdbga. if not ,please see membership info at top of site. join us now ,we welcome members to help us keep this true great story alive. join now. ibspec@aol.com _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From rwakefield@mn.rr.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:07:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:07:15 -0700 From: rwakefield rwakefield@mn.rr.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Talk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00BAB.66A3D520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mu name is Richard Wakefield. I was a tail gunner on Tom Richardson's = crew in the 427th. We started flying missions in late December 1944. = I got in 19 missions and on the 20th we had an engine catch on fire on a = mission to Zossen on March 15, 1945. We lost a lot of gas and didn't = have enough left to get to the American lines so we headed for the = Russian lines and ended up making a wheels up landing in Warsaw Poland. = It took us about 6 weeks to get back to England and it was just a few = days later that Germany surrendered. Tnat tri[p is a story in itself. If anybody remembers me I would be glad to hear from them. The only one = I can still find is Tom Richardson, My email address is rwakefield@mn.rr.com My phone number is 952-938-0946 Richard Wakefield ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00BAB.66A3D520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,
     
    Mu name is Richard Wakefield.  I = was a tail=20 gunner on Tom Richardson's crew in the 427th.   We started = flying=20 missions in late December 1944.  I got in 19 missions and on the = 20th we=20 had an engine catch on fire on a mission to Zossen on March 15, = 1945.  We=20 lost a lot of gas and didn't have enough left to get to the American = lines so we=20 headed for the Russian lines and ended up making a wheels up landing in = Warsaw=20 Poland.  It took us about 6 weeks to get back to England and it was = just a=20 few days later that Germany surrendered.  Tnat tri[p is a story in=20 itself.
     
    If anybody remembers me I would be glad = to hear=20 from them.  The only one I can still find is Tom = Richardson,
     
    My email address is rwakefield@mn.rr.com
    My phone number is = 952-938-0946
     
    Richard = Wakefield
    ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00BAB.66A3D520-- From JJENKINSR@cs.com Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:39:06 EDT Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:39:06 EDT From: JJENKINSR@cs.com JJENKINSR@cs.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Madingley Inscription I believe what was originally requested was the inscription that is displayed along the top of the Wall of the Missing at Madingley (Cambridge). This information may be found at www.abmc.gov. The passage is certainly worth repeating here. THE AMERICANS, WHOSE NAMES HERE APPEAR, WERE PART OF THE PRICE THAT FREE MEN FOR THE SECOND TIME IN THIS CENTURY HAVE BEEN FORCED TO PAY TO DEFEND HUMAN LIBERTY AND RIGHTS. ALL WHO SHALL HEREAFTER LIVE IN FREEDOM WILL BE HERE REMINDED THAT TO THESE MEN AND THEIR COMRADES WE OWE A DEBT TO BE PAID WITH GRATEFUL REMEMBRANCE OF THEIR SACRIFICE AND WITH HIGH RESOLVE THAT THE CAUSE FOR WHICH THEY DIED SHALL LIVE ETERNALLY. Listed amongst the many missing is MAJ Alton G. Miller. He is better known to WWII veterans as Glenn Miller. This American Cemetery is some distance from the city of Cambridge, but it is quite near the small village of Madingley. The Madingley Cemetery is a very moving place. The only other place where I have experienced similar emotions is the Pearl Harbor Memorial which rests above what is left of the USS Arizona. Of course, I have not been to the American Cemeteries in France. John A. Jenkins From WCarter516@aol.com Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:47:43 EDT Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:47:43 EDT From: WCarter516@aol.com WCarter516@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat I think faith helped cope; but I also believe that skill,ability tto work as a team, a level of maturity; ability to fly a tight formation, and the uncontrollable element of chance were equally, if not more, of a factor in completing a tour. Bill Carter From westwind@candw.ky Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:30:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:30:20 -0500 From: Georgia McSorley westwind@candw.ky Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat I agree with Bill Carter. The crews I served with were convinced we were doing the 'right' thing. We knew our job, did it, and trusted each other. Arni Sumarlidason From CDouglasN@aol.com Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:49:49 EDT Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:49:49 EDT From: CDouglasN@aol.com CDouglasN@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just a question... Hello everyone. I have several broad questions for everyone who spent time at Molesworth during the War. What was life like around the airstation? What did you guys do for fun? Where did you go? Aside from London, what towns did you visit and things like that. I've read story after story of the combat aspect of the 8th Air Force, but I've always wondered about the down time between missions. Chuck p.s. To all the veterans out there: Thank you. From burkejb@erols.com Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:43:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:43:59 -0400 From: Joyce and Bill burkejb@erols.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Unsubscripe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C00C71.50E9A0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please remove my name from your list, thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C00C71.50E9A0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Please remove my name from your list, = thanks.
    ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C00C71.50E9A0E0-- From VQHARGROVE@aol.com Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:03:23 EDT Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:03:23 EDT From: VQHARGROVE@aol.com VQHARGROVE@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] VQHargrove@aol.com Please, remove my name from the talk page, just too much Email. Thanks Private Hargrove From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:20:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Sidney Kallet is now living at , 1 Stirling Circle,Jamesburg ,08831. Phone 609-395-8250. From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:51:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video To BHAND-Sorry I did not include the state in Sid's address, it is New Jersey. Cheers From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:17:35 EDT Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:17:35 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just a question... The perfect answer to your question about "down time" is in my book "Last Raid"....tells about life around the base at Molesworth....the combat, the shenanigans, the funny episodes, the sheer terror, etc. A shameful commercial, I admit, but there you are. Send $23.45 to Hand Enterprises, Box 740812, Boynton Beach, FL 33474-0812 for delivery in two days or less via Priority Mail. Or you might check the web at http://aerodreams.anthill.com/ Egod! Still more commercials! Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombardier, 303rd/360th, Molesworth From Bhandsr@aol.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:24:55 EDT Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:24:55 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Molesworth Video Thanks....contacted Sid and he's in good health and spirits. It was good to talk to him for the first time in 55 years. At a local dry cleaners I hadn't patronized before in town, I recognized a guy I was in the fourth grade with in PS -118....how's that for reminiscing? Good wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombardier 303/360, 35m. From glm@xmission.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:15:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:15:46 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW I just spent the last 2 1/2 hours watching the 90 minute video "Target for Today". It is fascinating, to say the least. From what I can determine from the target briefing, the video was shot on Mission #76 (9 Oct 1943) with the target the Arado FW-190 plant in Anklam, Germany. Using the pause on the VCR, I could even read the date on the photo showing the results after the mission: 9-10-43 I swear I can identify my dad in the 359th briefing, but from when the film was shot, he wasn't there. It must be a look-alike or parts of the film was shot a month later when he was there. Do any of you who were there when the film was made know if it was all shot in one day or if they came back and added more footage? The video is riveting to watch. Usually I do two or three things at a time, but the world stopped and I stared at the TV thru the whole thing. What an experience that must have been! My hat's off to all you who were there. Regards, - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From jackjay@worldnet.att.net Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:40:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:40:12 -0400 From: Jack jackjay@worldnet.att.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lookin for Morris Pearl Just a shot in the dark... My dad is lookin for a 359th'er by the name of MORRIS PEARL - PVT - 32209130 G/P.. If anyone has heard of him, please let me know... Thank you... Jack From todd.hollritt@attws.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:51:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:51:11 -0400 From: Hollritt, Todd todd.hollritt@attws.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > From: Jim Walling > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > Dyle, > > > Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal > controlled the width of > the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the > wingspan of the attacking > plane and enable the sight to compute the range. > This along with the > tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to > compute the lead. As I > recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the > ring sight was "three > rads lead". > > Regards, Jim Walling Hello all, Regarding the thread about Ball Turrets I have been relaying this info to my Father Alfred Hollritt (427th). He told me a story about a mission that changed his thoughts about flying in the Ball. During one of their early raids they came under heavy attack from some 88 flak batteries. As they bounced through the brackets of four explosions around the B-17 he noticed a big commotion going on above him in the waist, both his gunners were tangled up in a parachute! At first it was a funny sight he said. Then they informed him "Hey Al, It's your chute that was blown apart up here" Not being able to wear much more than a harness down there suddenly became an issue he never thought of. Soon after that raid Dad related his experience to a British fighter pilot in a local Pub, the pilot said he would take care of him and sure enough Dad pulled up to his B-17 on the next raid with his fix in hand, a fighter pilot seat pack. He tested it out and sure enough he was able lay out the pack behind him in the turret. If he really had to exit in a hurry he could now. The only warning the brit gave him was "Listen Yank. wait a long while before you pull the cord, you will hang in the air allot longer with this big canopy over you!". Dad also said that when tracking with the computing sight it was very scary to suddenly see another Fortress come into view, very common in turbulent air. You had to be real careful tracking fighters though the bomber formations because the sight computed a lead for your guns. Listening to this you start to wonder how many friendly fire situation's injured our own in the heat of battle. Todd- (303rd member A637) P.S. Today Dad still has a small piece of his silk chute from that mission, all the crew members signed it after the raid. From gordy@saltspring.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:16:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:16:31 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Todd, Nice post. Please say hello to your father, from me and my father, Don Alton, 91BG. When Dad was shot down on the mission to Frankfurt, Oct.4. '43, he had to jump out of his escape hatch in the tail, after the target. He free fell for only a short distance, and pulled his cord to open the chute. He was still at an altitude over 20,000 feet, and it was -50. He wanted to get the chute open so he was more easily seen by the Germans. The sky was full of fighters and he didn't want to get run into, or pass out from lack of oxygen before he got the chute open. The fighters had been attacking their fort, which was down to one engine, and dragging behind the formation. The cord came off in his hand. He pulled the emergency cord and nothing happened. The week before, he had lent his 'chute to another flyer, and it wasn't returned. He had been issued a chest pack instead of the back pack that he had lent out. He had to rip the pack open with his bare hands, and doesn't know where he got the strength. Superhuman strength and adrenalin worked in his favor. He managed to get the gunny sack material open enough to deploy his chute. The Germans didn't sign his and give him a piece. I am glad your dad didn't have to use his. That is a nice souvenir for him, I'm sure. Gordy ********************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hollritt, Todd" To: <303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 6:51 PM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:45:25 -1000 > > To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com > > From: Jim Walling > > Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] ball turret > > Reply-To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com > > > > Dyle, > > > > > > Your hands did not do all the work. A foot pedal > > controlled the width of > > the lighted reticle on the sight to frame the > > wingspan of the attacking > > plane and enable the sight to compute the range. > > This along with the > > tracking of the pursuit curve allowed the sight to > > compute the lead. As I > > recall, the rule for the hand held guns with the > > ring sight was "three > > rads lead". > > > > Regards, Jim Walling > > Hello all, > Regarding the thread about Ball Turrets I have been relaying this info > to my Father Alfred Hollritt (427th). He told me a story about a mission > that changed his thoughts about flying in the Ball. During one of their > early raids they came under heavy attack from some 88 flak batteries. As > they bounced through the brackets of four explosions around the B-17 he > noticed a big commotion going on above him in the waist, both his gunners > were tangled up in a parachute! At first it was a funny sight he said. Then > they informed him "Hey Al, It's your chute that was blown apart up here" Not > being able to wear much more than a harness down there suddenly became an > issue he never thought of. Soon after that raid Dad related his experience > to a British fighter pilot in a local Pub, the pilot said he would take care > of him and sure enough Dad pulled up to his B-17 on the next raid with his > fix in hand, a fighter pilot seat pack. He tested it out and sure enough he > was able lay out the pack behind him in the turret. If he really had to exit > in a hurry he could now. The only warning the brit gave him was "Listen > Yank. wait a long while before you pull the cord, you will hang in the air > allot longer with this big canopy over you!". > Dad also said that when tracking with the computing sight it was very > scary to suddenly see another Fortress come into view, very common in > turbulent air. You had to be real careful tracking fighters though the > bomber formations because the sight computed a lead for your guns. Listening > to this you start to wonder how many friendly fire situation's injured our > own in the heat of battle. > > Todd- (303rd member A637) > > P.S. Today Dad still has a small piece of his silk chute from that mission, > all the crew members signed it after the raid. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:58:41 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:58:41 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat Kevin: The rain falls of the just and the unjust. Most crews probably had some very religious and very unreligious. How would anyone know? How would anyone find out? I suppose most all who finished and came home thanked someone. Jack From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:13:59 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:13:59 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe From Jprencher@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:30:09 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:30:09 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe The P38 after it got the aileron boost was pretty equal to a P51 and probably most pilots who flew both in the war liked the P38 better. Its problem. It used twice as much fuel and nearly twice as much maintenance. The pilot felt pretty comfortable with that Allison on both sides of him. It wasn't as good an engine as the Merlin but it was just as good for armor Plate. If you lost one, except on take off, it was still a pretty good airplane and would get you back to England when you lost an engine a lot better than when you lost one in a P51. Jack From gordy@saltspring.com Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:38:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:38:14 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat Jack and Kevin, Probably a lot of truth in Jack's statement. The saying "there are no atheists in foxholes", could also apply to "there are no atheists in a plane on fire, under attack, and hurtling at the ground at about 200 knots, out of control". It may be that they all prayed when they were in trouble, hence the ones who survived could thank God. The ones who didn't survive prayed as well, but we never heard about it. May they rest in peace with the Lord, now. Gordy. *************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat > Kevin: > The rain falls of the just and the unjust. Most crews probably had some > very religious and very unreligious. How would anyone know? How would anyone > find out? I suppose most all who finished and came home thanked someone. > > Jack > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:57:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:57:48 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW > I just spent the last 2 1/2 hours watching the 90 minute video > "Target for Today". It is fascinating, to say the least. I got my copy yesterday too, and I agree. That is the most educational film about the 8th AF I have seen yet. It looks like much of the footage is the same as that in the Clarke Gable "Combat America" film, which also seemed to be primarily 303rd as far as the action footage. > From what I > can determine from the target briefing, the video was shot on > Mission #76 (9 Oct 1943) with the target the Arado FW-190 plant in > Anklam, Germany. I checked the other 3 targets too, and they match 9 Oct also. I guess my question is, to what extent was this real, and to what extent re-frabricated. I've heard that the front views of the gunners were actually taken on the ground, and I'd have to assume that the action footage must be a collection from several missions, but I was curious whether the briefing shots were staged. I don't see how they could have filmed all those different bomb groups, etc on the same day. They said that those were the real soldiers, but I'm guessing that it was probably not the real briefings. > I swear I can identify my dad in the 359th briefing, but from when the > film was shot, he wasn't there. It must be a look-alike or parts of the > film was shot a month later when he was there. If they did re-create the briefing footage, that could explain. I just don't see how they could have gotten all that footage on one day. Some of it has to have been obtained later. Really nice video though. I learned a lot from watching it. A few questions I won't have to ask now. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:23:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:23:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW The film was shot in segments. The briefing room scene was shot between Nov of "43 and March of "44 because that was the time I spent at Molesworth on my first tour. The aerial scenes could have been shot at different times and spliced in Some of it could have ben shot by Clark Gable.Wnen it was all put together it made for a great movie.. Hal Susskind From susskind@webtv.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:31:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:31:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Lookin for Morris Pearl There was a Murray Peaarl in the 359th. He was the one who woke us up in the morning for a mission. Murray came from Brooklyn in New York. In 1946 he was in the plumbing supply business. I lost track of him when I was recalled in 1949. I've been trying to locate him since I retired in 1973. There is a Murray Peal in the New York telephone directory but it isn't him. He has gotten hundreds of phone calls over the years from people looking for the Molesworth Murray. Hal Susskind From EISENCOL@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:09:26 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:09:26 EDT From: EISENCOL@aol.com EISENCOL@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ID TOM QUINN, OSCAR HOWLETT AAND MYSELF IN THE BRIEFING ROOM SCENE. WHEN I SIGNED OUT THE FILM FROM THE AKRON PUBLIC LIBRARY IN 1945, I HAD A COUPLE OF POSITIVES MADE FROM THAT SCENE. I'VE PROBABLY SEEN THE FILM AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES IN THE PAST 55 YEARS. PLEASE TAKE ME OFF THE MAILING LIST FOR THE REST OF THE SUMMER. I'LL LET YOU KNOW LATER WHEN TO RESUME. THANKS...... BILL EISENHART From Bhandsr@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:30:13 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:30:13 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW Thought my eyes were going bad or the TV out of kilter with all that super soft focus....had to be a lousy copy of Target for Today, or made before copy technology got out of first gear. But fuzzy or not, it's a great piece of film. Best Wishes and Cheers, Bob Hand, Bombardier 360/303 Fink's Crew. From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Member Does anyone know Carmen W. Root / radio operator on Old Black Magic,Tarvid's crew ? We arrived in Molesworth in late Dec./44 thru April/45. Rot is the only one of our crew that we can't find.Two of the crew are deceased.Various combinations of thr reminder have attended many reunions.It would make 6 guys very happy if we found him. I really enjoy the reading the letters every day. Lou Grandwilliams/Co-pilot ,OLD BLACK MAGIC From glm@xmission.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:52:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:52:24 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW > Nov of "43 and March of "44 because that was the time I spent at > Molesworth on my first tour. The aerial scenes could have been shot > at My dad definitely is there. I can also identify David Chang, dad's bombardier in the room. I "think" I can identify David Brooks, but am not sure. I'll try to get a print of the video and see who else we can ID. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Shaddoe2@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:06:25 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:06:25 EDT From: Shaddoe2@aol.com Shaddoe2@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: video-"target For Today" Dear Gary and Whomever, Seems I came in on the tail end of the messages on how to get the video. Because of all the garbage and repetitive emails due to conflicting email systems with ISP's, my son, who takes care of my computer related stuff may have inadvertlently deleted what I needed to find out. I tried to call the number to get the video as previous stated in the digest but have had no luck. Gary..Where did you get your copy or can you forward the information once again on where I can obtain the video. I was in the picture. I did some flying of the B-17's. I flew a sqaudron of B-17's over the wash and there was a B-24 taking pictures of the take offs and landings in October of 1943...Thanks cheers.....Bergie Lt.Col.W.H.(Bill)Bergeron From glm@xmission.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:12:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:12:03 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Member > Does anyone know Carmen W. Root / radio operator on Old Black > Magic,Tarvid's crew ? Lou, searching the white pages of phone books on the web at: http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/Phone I found one name that could be your guy. It might be worth a phone call to find out. I found my dad's copilot that way with one phone call. No one had heard of him in 55 years. Good luck and let us know. Carmen Root Phone: 816-444-7737 7820 Madison Ave, Kansas City MO 64114-1772 - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From glm@xmission.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:16:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:16:15 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: video-"target For Today" > inadvertlently deleted what I needed to find out. I tried to call the > number to get the video as previous stated in the digest but have had > no luck. Gary..Where did you get your copy or can you forward the > information once again on where I I bought mine at amazon.com. Go to www.amazon.com and search for "target for today" The cost was $30. Someone posted a place to buy it for $20, but I called and they were out of stock with no plans to get more. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From glm@xmission.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:30:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:30:55 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW > collection from several missions, but I was curious whether the > briefing shots were staged. I don't see how they could have filmed > all those different bomb groups, etc on the same day. They said that > those were the real soldiers, but I'm guessing that it was probably > not the real briefings. As Hal Susskind says it was done in early 44, so the briefing had to be staged. The video says "all the crewmen" meet for briefing to get the target info. Then, go to separate briefings for their crew position. Did the officers and enlisted men meet together for the initial briefing? In the video, the only enlisted man I could spot was the guy that turned on the lights. Also, it seems like the officers were a little over dressed for a mission briefing. - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From Shaddoe2@aol.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:44:24 EDT Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:44:24 EDT From: Shaddoe2@aol.com Shaddoe2@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: video-"Target for Today Gentleman, I had one further question about the video "Target for Today"...thanks to Gary for getting me started on where to find and purchase the video, however there are two videos listed with that title. Both are the same video but there was a question as to one of the video publishers having made a tape of bad quality and blurry. Does anyone know which is the better of the two videos of the same title. There is one at 92 minutes for $35.00 put out by International Historic Films and the other at 120 minutes for $29.95 put out by Bennett Marine Video. Anyone know which is the better tape to buy and view...Thanks cheers...Bergie Lt.Co.W.H.(Bill)Bergeron (Ret.) From glm@xmission.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:56:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:56:00 -0700 From: Gary Moncur glm@xmission.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: video-"Target for Today Mine is the one made by this company: CAV Video Productions. http://www.aviationvideo.com/worldwar.html Look at CAV-51 It says it is 85 minutes. I think 90 is closer. It's pretty good, considering the old film is 56 years old. It's not blurry. > I had one further question about the video "Target for > Today"...thanks to > Gary for getting me started on where to find and purchase the video, > however there are two videos listed with that title. Both are the same > video but there was a question as to one of the video publishers > having made a tape of bad quality and blurry. Does anyone know which > is the better of the two videos of the same title. There is one at 92 > minutes for $35.00 put out by International Historic Films and the > other at 120 minutes for $29.95 put out by Bennett Marine Video. > Anyone know which is the better tape to buy and view...Thanks - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association http://www.303rdBGA.com http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird From gordy@saltspring.com Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:52 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Member Do you have any idea where Root was from, or where he went after the war? Gordy. ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Grandwilliams" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:16 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Crew Member > Does anyone know Carmen W. Root / radio operator on Old Black > Magic,Tarvid's crew ? > We arrived in Molesworth in late Dec./44 thru April/45. Rot is the only > one of our crew that we can't find.Two of the crew are deceased.Various > combinations of thr reminder have attended many reunions.It would make 6 > guys very happy if we found him. I really enjoy > the reading the letters every day. > Lou Grandwilliams/Co-pilot ,OLD BLACK MAGIC > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Grandwilliams OLDBLACKMAGIC@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Carmen Root Gordy,Root was from Pontiac,Mich. We exchanged Christmas cards for a few years. I don't know if He ever left there. Gary, My navigator,Vince Hudson and I have called this lovely lady tn Kansas,Alas,she was not our RO. THANKS,Lou From gordy@saltspring.com Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:25:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:25:45 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Carmen Root Hi Lou, I found another one, in Chula Vista, CA. Not HER, either. I just phoned. Nice lady, but obviously not a WWII vet. The only other one I've found is the one in Kansas, but you've tried HER already. I'll keep my eyes peeled for you, and try a few more people searches on the net. Ya just never know. Gordy ****************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Grandwilliams" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 5:36 AM Subject: [303rd-Talk] Carmen Root > Gordy,Root was from Pontiac,Mich. We exchanged Christmas cards for a few > years. I don't know if He ever left there. > Gary, My navigator,Vince Hudson and I have called this lovely lady tn > Kansas,Alas,she was not our RO. THANKS,Lou From IBSPEC@aol.com Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:30:15 EDT Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:30:15 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Talk lloyd what does nbsp mean? ibspec@aol.com From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:17:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:17:48 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] 303rd Talk Nola (in) bombardum (est) scribula Populae. My Latin really stinks. I guess a reminder, to wit; bombs and bullets have no conscience. Perhaps our creator had higher hopes for us. We learn from our mistakes; who ever causes them. Very best wishes, and thank you for understanding. Grant. IBSPEC@aol.com wrote: > lloyd what does nbsp mean? ibspec@aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:51:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:51:09 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Video - WOW Gary, I have also seen this film. All I saw were young mens faces and they all looked old beyound their years. I see no recourse for those of us who were not there, nor can ever hope to be. It is, I think, important for those of us who care, to remember and preserve the memories and the history that our fathers have passed on to us and to have the courage to learn from their experience, and defend against any repetition of it. Thank you, Gary for a very unselfish and magnificent effort in bringing this all together. Lloyd Grant. Gary Moncur wrote: > I just spent the last 2 1/2 hours watching the 90 minute video > "Target for Today". It is fascinating, to say the least. From what I > can determine from the target briefing, the video was shot on > Mission #76 (9 Oct 1943) with the target the Arado FW-190 plant in > Anklam, Germany. Using the pause on the VCR, I could even read > the date on the photo showing the results after the mission: 9-10-43 > > I swear I can identify my dad in the 359th briefing, but from when the > film was shot, he wasn't there. It must be a look-alike or parts of the > film was shot a month later when he was there. Do any of you who > were there when the film was made know if it was all shot in one > day or if they came back and added more footage? > > The video is riveting to watch. Usually I do two or three things at a > time, but the world stopped and I stared at the TV thru the whole > thing. What an experience that must have been! My hat's off to all > you who were there. > > Regards, > - Gary - Webmaster, 303rd Bomb Group Association > http://www.303rdBGA.com > http://www.303rdBGA.com/thunderbird > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:06:27 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:06:27 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe Hind sight . If the P-51 had been operational early in the war the carnage that overwhelmed our bomber crews may have been mitigated. The British bought the design from the US before we became involved. They also bought the F4-U Corsair and learned how to land it on a carrier deck, before we deployed it only to Pacific operations. If I am misinformed, please let me know. Thanks. Lloyd Grant. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > We all know the P-51 is considered the best all around fighter of the Second > World War, but I have another theory that is "outside the box." Picture > this! What if the P-38 lost those Allison liquid-cooled engines and were > replaced by Roll Royce Merlins or Packard-built Griffons? Lockheed did make > a prototype of this machine, and it was far superior to the P-51 in service > ceiling, speed, and manuverability, which is hard to believe. The downside > was the cost of making the modifications, and the time to tool-up at that > late stage of the war. > > Any comments? > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:09:21 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:09:21 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] God and Air Combat Yes , Kevin. I wish to God that you had been there to put this theory to the test. Nice of you to stay in touch. Grant. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > Hi gang: Here is a subject I have not seen mentioned in these chat rooms. > I have interviewed literlly hundreds of aircrews over the years, and the one > thing that I have always picked up on is that those crews who were deeply > religious are the ones who dealt with air combat the best and made it home. > It seems the ones who were not all that religious went down. Any thoughts > on this from those who were there? > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:34:36 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:34:36 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret Well said, Dyle. Grant.

    Dyle Davidson wrote: 

    Hello Bill ------I didn't reply to your inquiry of 3 days ago, because
you got me scratching my head----is that right or was it something else
?
I would like to very accurate in what I say and I was hoping someone
would jump in there with a sharper memory than mine and answer your
questions factually. But as I recollect----ah--- the turret controls ,
as well as the guns were the same "handle".The turret operated up and
down, as well as the speed of the ball rotation---everything was done in
coordination and easily so in tracking fighters though your 'window'
which was the gunsight. You are reclining/sitting in a very comfortable
position with your hands doing all the work. It's 40* below centigrade
,your heated suit is at maximum high and your still cold, if you recline
too hard you will feel the hot wires of the heated top burn your back. .
    Now Bill , I hope some other BTG will jump in here, correct me or
add to what I said.
Thank you for your interest.                   
                               Dyle Davidson
    GOD BLESS AMERICA !
    ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From Jprencher@aol.com Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:50:52 EDT Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:50:52 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe Lloyd, My opinion only. The big down side to the P38 was not the engines. Sure it would be a better airplane with the Merlins. They were a better engine. BUT it would still use nearly twice as much fuel as a P51. You would have two engines, two props, two super chargers, two governors, etc., to maintain and that meant nearly twice as much skilled manpower to maintain them and twice as many ships to get the fuel, Oil, Groceries, etc., over there. Jack Rencher From palidin@netzero.net Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:37:22 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:37:22 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret Bill, you have posed an exellent question.  Let's sit back and listen to the responses.  Best, Grant.

    Bill Owen wrote:

    I want to thank all of you who responded to my question about what it was like to be in the ball turret. I now know a lot more than I did but I would like to know how it operated. Seems that to move it in all different directions, aim and fire all at the same time would have taken at least four hands and a lot of coordination. Seems also that it would be difficult to hit a target since the turret had to be moved mechanically. The other gunners could swing their weapon, point and shoot similar to shooting a rifle. Was it difficult to get the ball to move easily enough to track the target? Just curious.Bill Owen
    ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From IBSPEC@aol.com Sun, 27 Aug 2000 02:32:25 EDT Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 02:32:25 EDT From: IBSPEC@aol.com IBSPEC@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ball turret grant tellme what npsb or such means. thanks. spec From mail148779@pop.net Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:54:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:54:34 -0400 From: Matt Petersen mail148779@pop.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just a question... Chuck My father told me that he enjoyed a hot bath. He said, " They would get "coppers", large English pennies, and go to a hotel and stuff the coin operated hot water heater full of coppers until the thing was nearly bouncing off the floor and the take a long restful bath". I have some artwork he did while on base. He also said he spent some time out on the pistol range. Practicing his fast draw with the gun. I sounds like he did anything just to past the time. Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Just a question... > Hello everyone. I have several broad questions for everyone who spent time > at Molesworth during the War. > > What was life like around the airstation? What did you guys do for fun? > Where did you go? Aside from London, what towns did you visit and things > like that. > > I've read story after story of the combat aspect of the 8th Air Force, but > I've always wondered about the down time between missions. > > Chuck > > p.s. To all the veterans out there: Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk > From Jprencher@aol.com Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:26:13 EDT Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:26:13 EDT From: Jprencher@aol.com Jprencher@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Just a question... Chuck, I was different from most of us so I am not typical. I Studied, Mostly German Fighter Pilot Manuals, Wrote a few letters, Rode my bicycle around the country side, Built an oil burner (used engine oil) for our coke stove, Built an air speed indicator I could clamp in the window if ours got shot out, Slept, Played just a bit of poker, test flew planes that had major work on them before they went on a mission, Slow timed new engines 4 hours before they went on a mission, Cut hair, Half soled shoes, Change the heels. We couldn't get new ones so I would just trade shoes. Put the left one on the right shoe. If I knew I was not going on a mission tomorrow that night I'd go over and help the mechanics get the planes ready for tomorrow's mission. I didn't drink so I didn't go to the clubs with the boys. I'm very ugly so I didn't go with girls. That's not quite right. They wouldn't go with me. I did go to London once on a 48 Hour pass, but never went there again until about 1993 to a reunion. I figured I'd never lost anything in London and there were V1s and V2s there. If they'd ever got up to V8s like Henry Ford we'd have no doubt lost the War. Hope you get an answer from some of the more normal fellows. Best Wishes, Jack Rencher From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:21:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:21:55 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe Ahhh, Jack: But those to Allisons or Merlins could provide much greater lift, hence they could carry more drop tanks, and later in the war when the Luftwaffee thinned out, could this not have been viewed as a tactical advantage? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Jprencher@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 9:55 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] RE: [303rd-Talk]Best Fighter in Europe Lloyd, My opinion only. The big down side to the P38 was not the engines. Sure it would be a better airplane with the Merlins. They were a better engine. BUT it would still use nearly twice as much fuel as a P51. You would have two engines, two props, two super chargers, two governors, etc., to maintain and that meant nearly twice as much skilled manpower to maintain them and twice as many ships to get the fuel, Oil, Groceries, etc., over there. Jack Rencher _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:30:27 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:30:27 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc On a visit to the archives a week or so ago, I copied some documents on a couple of missions. One of these was the Oct 3 1944 mission. On documents I already had from microfilm, it was indicated that the lead squadron had problems receiving course signal and hat to "bomb by rate" (?), and had to take it's course from the low squadron. From the new documents I viewed at NARA, it stated that the Hi squadron bombed in the "Lo-Lo" position (altitudes were given, and it was lower than the other two squadrons). Also, the bombs-away times for the lead squadron were nearly 6 minutes earlier than the Lo squadron. All this confused me. First of all, what is the "Lo-Lo" position, and why would the high squadron drop down lower than the low squadron for the bomb run? (This sounds like the Lo squadron has assumed the lead for the mission?) Secondly, if the lead squadron was bombing off the Lo squadron, then how could it have dropped it's bombs 6 minutes earlier? And what does bombing by rate mean? Thanks. Just trying to understand all the information I have. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:45:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:45:44 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc Not sure at all, but here is an eduacted guess. If the squardon was in the high position, perhaps they had encountered prop wash from the group in front of them, and to avaoid buffetting, they dropped to a lower bombing altitude. Also, maybe the high squardron was on the outside of a major turn, and in order to catch up, they used airspeed instead of engine power to catch up, i.e. they dived to a lower altitude, gaining airspeed and catching up in the process. Not sure about this one either, but bombing by rate could mean bombing in train, which means each individual bomb was released at a specified interval, instead of all at once. Just a guess. Any other comments? -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Bill Jones Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 9:36 AM To: 303rd-talk@303rdbga.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc On a visit to the archives a week or so ago, I copied some documents on a couple of missions. One of these was the Oct 3 1944 mission. On documents I already had from microfilm, it was indicated that the lead squadron had problems receiving course signal and hat to "bomb by rate" (?), and had to take it's course from the low squadron. From the new documents I viewed at NARA, it stated that the Hi squadron bombed in the "Lo-Lo" position (altitudes were given, and it was lower than the other two squadrons). Also, the bombs-away times for the lead squadron were nearly 6 minutes earlier than the Lo squadron. All this confused me. First of all, what is the "Lo-Lo" position, and why would the high squadron drop down lower than the low squadron for the bomb run? (This sounds like the Lo squadron has assumed the lead for the mission?) Secondly, if the lead squadron was bombing off the Lo squadron, then how could it have dropped it's bombs 6 minutes earlier? And what does bombing by rate mean? Thanks. Just trying to understand all the information I have. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From susskind@webtv.net Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:35:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:35:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc I was one of the lead navigators for the low squaadron. We bombed using Gee-H equipment. There was a solid overcast. I think we may have bombed from about 24,800 feet. The lead squadron had equipment failure. Bombing by rate could have meant bombing by radar. It was my third mission on my second tour. Hal Susskind From gordy@saltspring.com Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:09:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:09:50 -0700 From: Gordon Alton gordy@saltspring.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc Hal, I thought when I read the word 'rate' that it might have been a misspelling of 'rote'. Bombing by 'rote' to me means bombing by habit, or following someone else's lead, such as the lead bombadier. Some squadrons had more than one lead, for backup, and well trained groups could swap leads between squadrons. This was sometimes necessary, but not always effective, because of communication problems, at least early on in the bombing campaign. Gordy. ****************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Susskind" To: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Cc: <303rd-talk@303rdbga.com> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc > I was one of the lead navigators for the low squaadron. We bombed using > Gee-H equipment. There was a solid overcast. I think we may have bombed > from about 24,800 feet. The lead squadron had equipment failure. > Bombing by rate could have meant bombing by radar. It was my third > mission on my second tour. Hal Susskind > > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:10:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:10:02 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc > I was one of the lead navigators for the low squaadron. Just looked you up on my microfilm. It says you were flying with Lt Mainwaring on 43- 38016, which it identified as a "Grafton-Underwood" ship. I'm curious what that implied? Is that one of those "Pathfinder" aircraft sent to lead missions, or was it just a regular plane borrowed because the group was short of planes after the Sept 28 mission? My father was on his first mission in the high squadron, BTW. > We bombed using > Gee-H equipment. There was a solid overcast. I think we may have bombed > from about 24,800 feet. The lead squadron had equipment failure. > Bombing by rate could have meant bombing by radar. It was my third > mission on my second tour. Hal Susskind Good memory after all these years. :-) The archives said that the lead squadron bombed at 26,950, the Lo bombed at 25,900, and the Lo-Lo bombed at 24,800. Perhaps they had the Lo and the Lo-Lo reversed. Relative to why the high squadron dropped down, I guess if the lead squadron was gone, that one of the two remaining would have to fall behind, and it was probably easier for the high to come down. Still curious how the lead squadron got away from the other two. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From wejones@megalink.net Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:13:23 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:13:23 -0400 From: Bill Jones wejones@megalink.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc > I thought when I read the word 'rate' that it might have been a > misspelling of 'rote'. This is possible. The word is rather blurry in the copy I have, and it could be either. ************************************** *Bill Jones N3JLQ Sweden Maine * * wejones@megalink.net * * http://www.megalink.net/~wejones * * TVRO HAM RADIO WWII/B-17 SPACE WX * ************************************** From susskind@webtv.net Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:30:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:30:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Harold Susskind susskind@webtv.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] ? Lo-Lo position , etc I flew 13 missions on my first tour as part of a PFF crew staioned at Chelveston. At tha time I believe there was a shortage of radar equipped B-17s as well as trained mickey operators. When I returned to Molesworth in September of'44 I saw that we had more radar equipped aircraft as well as trained mickey operators assigned to the group. Hal From fory@galesburg.net Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:44:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:44:36 -0700 From: fory fory@galesburg.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] mickey As ROMG on Kuykendall's lead crew, I shared radio room with several different operators. Also recall a truck trip or two to neighboring Group to get a pathfinder B-17. From Bhandsr@aol.com Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:05:29 EDT Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:05:29 EDT From: Bhandsr@aol.com Bhandsr@aol.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] mickey Roger K. was a fine guy who will be missed. He was in same nissen hut as Fink's Crew. Check local mag stores for FLYPAST, Sept., which has a huge foldout on the instrument panel of the B-17. Cheers, Bob Hand, bomb. 303/360 35m. From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:18:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:18:02 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today This 93 minute VHS tape can also be purchased from: Antiquary Video 8381 Conaga Ave. Conoga Park, CA 91304-2605 Phone: 1.888.331.7788 This company also carries the vidoes Memphis Belle (the original), Combat America, The Earthquakers (9th AF), Thunderbolt!, The Battle of Midway, Target for Tonight, and The Battle of Britain. The price is $27.95 plus $4.50 shipping and handling. An ad ran in the October 2000 edition of WARBIRDS International. Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing Eighth Air Force Historical Society 2514 W. Woodland St. Joseph, MO 64506 USA From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:58:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:58:05 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today As one salesman to another, in the interest of honesty in advertising, the correct price for the item offered is $ 32.45, not $29.95 plus $ 4.50 shipping and "handling". If the product is worth the expense don't be afraid to ask a fair price for it, but it serves neither you , nor the consumer to skew the reality. ( I am a car salesman. I understand all the bull-shit, and hate it as much as most people do.) No offense intended. I hope this helps. Palidin. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > This 93 minute VHS tape can also be purchased from: > > Antiquary Video > 8381 Conaga Ave. > Conoga Park, CA 91304-2605 > Phone: 1.888.331.7788 > > This company also carries the vidoes Memphis Belle (the original), Combat > America, The Earthquakers (9th AF), Thunderbolt!, The Battle of Midway, > Target for Tonight, and The Battle of Britain. > > The price is $27.95 plus $4.50 shipping and handling. An ad ran in the > October 2000 edition of WARBIRDS International. > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > 2514 W. Woodland > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > USA > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:07:39 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:07:39 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] The Ball Turret Thank you, Dyle for this piece of history.  Everything must be remembered and cherished.  Lloyd Grant  ( 427th son.)

    "D.D." wrote: 

    Hello Bill Owen
   Bill Carter described my feelings on this subject the best. Here's
why------ I pulled 34 missions in the 359 and 360th, all but about 6 or
8 in the ball turret.
I was flying waist this mission when our ball gunner was wounded. The
wound was in his buttocks and hip area {unknown at this time} and he was
unconscious, unable  to talk or help himself in any way. His body or
hands were on the turret controls which was rotating constantly, out of
control. I waited till I could pull the electric plug and stop this wild
rotation. Finally after several attempts and it seemed like hours I got
it stopped  in the  position I needed to crank up the ball. I didn't
have the strength to turn the crank and called for help from one of my
crew. It took all we had to get it up and finally get our buddy out of
the turret.
I dressed the wound and got the bleeding stopped, gave him morphine,
hooked him up, {we were still at altitude } There was a 2 inch hole in
the 'seat' of the ball and I imagine part of the turret was in the
wound, or so I thought.
Our BG recovered and  was sent back to the states.
    The next mission my pilot said "You fly the ball now, there will be
no more waist gunners"
I did, and as we speak, I still feel that "hole" to this day.
                       Dyle Davidson
    GOD BLESS AMERICA !
    ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:15:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:15:58 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Pearson, thanks. Any info you have on the subject would sincerely be appreciated. Alas, I can give you no cooberation as respects your inquiry. I too have some (many) arcane questions. I am the son of a 427th crew member, probing for answers. Best. Grant. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > How many of the vets recall being trained to release the Ball Turret in > flight? Do you remember where the large wrench was located to loosen the > bolts on the Ball? > Kevin M. Pearson > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:26:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:26:15 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] and now,.....the rest of the story! Thanks for taking the time to include this piece of history, Kevin. Every snippet matters. Every perspective counts. Lloyd Grant. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > (Sorry, guys, the other day I was pounding out this story, got a phone call, > and accidentally sent it unfinished. Kevin) > > Part I > I have interviewed Oskar Bosch twice now in the last year. He was a FW 190 > fighter pilot with 18 confirmed "victories." He was with a Sturmstaffel - > IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 'Udet', a specially equipped hunter/killer squadron. He had > two 30 mm cannons on his ship and three .303 machine guns firing from the > nose. Becuase his a/c was heavily laden with cannons and ordinance for the > cannons, they were so heavy as to not be too manuverable. They almost > always had 109s flying cover for them until they got to altitude and could > use the wieght of their a/c and resulting air speed to escape out fighters. > He said they normally would fly down a bomber stream out of range of our > .50s, and would > > Part II > and would try to pick a squadron or group that was not in formation. He > said they always looked for squadrons that were on the outside of a turn > with another group in front of them. Usually the prop wash from the group > in front, coupled with being on the outside of a turn, would break up some > squadrons. > > They would race down the bomber stream, pick a squadron to attack, and then > come in from the rear and above, usually three, five and seven abreast. He > said they would close from the rear and when they were within cannon range > and still out out of our gunner's range, they would start lobbing 30 mm > cannon shells into their particular target. The timed 30mms, he said, we > very effective, although the cannon fired slowly. As he closed on an > aircraft, he would come in about 200 feet above his target and at a slight > angle to the tail to maximixe the gun deflection of the tail gunner and > waist. He said they would try to nuetralize the tail position first, then > close on the a/c, firing the machine guns and cannons at the wing root, > where the wing meets the fuselage and the main fuel cells were. They would > also walk their rudders back and forth and spray their target from wing tip > to wing tip. Then after the attack, they would roll inverted because there > was armor plate underneath the pilots seat, and fly on down through to the > next squadron. > > He said he was so scared when he attached a formation, that he does not > remember individual attacks. He loved the big radial engine on an FW > because he said he could hide behind it when attacking. > > Oskar had been a regular fighter pilot until the raid on Hamm in January > 1944. He was transferring to another squadron and was there during the > raid. He was in a bomb shelter when the RAF came over. After that raid > they went out to look for survivors, then the Eighth came, then another > lull, and then the RAF ruturned. As he was sitting in the bomb shelter with > women and children, having the air sucked out of his lungs, and feeling the > compresions from the bombs, he swore he would do everything possible to > shoot down the terrorfleigers (terroy fliers). That's when he joined the > Sturmstaffel. He said before each mission they had to declare in writing > they would not return unless they had at least one bomber "victory" and they > were instructed to ram if necessary. Oskar did three times. > > On 6 May 1945, flying a defense mission for Berlin, he collided with a > YAK-9, bailed out, had a nasty knee injury, and was taken prisoner by the > Russians. He escaped three days later and walked 1,000 kilometers to his > hometown on the German/Austrian border. > > I have several pictures of Oskar from the war. In all of them he is > smiling, appears very happy and well fed. When I look at pics of bomber > crews, there are not many smiles, dark circles in the eyes, and in some > cases the wear of combat is most evident. I asked Oskar about this paradox. > He said in his heavy Austian accent, "Ahh, but Kevin, you forget, we were > the hunters, they were the hunted." > > Oskar still flies today, in fact, he performes at airshows in his glider. > The show is called "Wings of Man." I've never seen it, but from what I have > heard from others, it is spectacular. > > Kevin M. Pearson > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:37:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:37:49 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Bill, I appreciate what you said, and will be greatful for any other insights you wish to share as regards the BTG position. I am interested in the mechanics of how it worked, but I believe a long book could be written by the men, or man, who fought in this position. Thank you. Lloyd Grant. (427th son). WCarter516@aol.com wrote: > In all do respect --- > Having flown 35 in the ball in the 358th; it was no better or worse than any > other position in terms of safety altho there were a few differences from > some other positions on a 17; inside a 40 inch globe there was an oxygen > regulator, two .50caliber machine guns 800+ rounds of ammo, a computing sight > for the guns; the electro-hydraulic controls, yourself; a chest pack if you > would hook it on one side and keep your arm elevated for 5-6 hours; and > whatever else you might feel more "comfortable" with. It did get roomier as > I went from 175 to 135# in 5 months. > There were hand cranks stowed above your head, if you could maneuver yourself > into a position to use them and there were also some other hand cranks in the > waist if there was someone still there to use them and tru you could be > chopped free in a rather short time if your buddies had not all ready > departed. I hope your shoulders are broad Jack as I think that it being the > safest place is a pretty strong statement. > Bill Carter > > . > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From palidin@netzero.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:47:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:47:26 -0400 From: Lloyd J H Grant palidin@netzero.net Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk digest, Vol 1 #14 - 14 msgs Mr. Smith, thank you for some insight. As you flew early in the war and were in the 427th, is there any possility that you might remember my dad, Larry Grant, or, Don Stockton,, or Lloyd Shirley (also a bombadier) The B-17 they came over in was "Joe BTSFPLK II."? Thank you , again, in any case. Very best. Lloyd Grant. AMS303@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/15/00 10:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com writes: > > << 13 >> > Jack > On the 11 oclock position. As a bombardier I saw any number of attacks > from > 11 oclock. In fact there is a movie "12 Oclock High". > > What the ME 109s would do is come up ahead of the formations high and > then > charge down firing their guns usually 20mm cannons and split S and drop below. > > Now my last mission was 16th 1943. > > Abbott Smith 427th > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:07:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:07:22 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today Sorry, Palidin, I must disagree. Go down to your local book store and buy a copy of WARBIRDS International, and you will see the published price. Perhaps after calling the number listed, the price has increased, and if so, I would not do business with this company. If this is the case, it sounds like a "bait and switch" tactic to me. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:17 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Target for Today As one salesman to another, in the interest of honesty in advertising, the correct price for the item offered is $ 32.45, not $29.95 plus $ 4.50 shipping and "handling". If the product is worth the expense don't be afraid to ask a fair price for it, but it serves neither you , nor the consumer to skew the reality. ( I am a car salesman. I understand all the bull-shit, and hate it as much as most people do.) No offense intended. I hope this helps. Palidin. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > This 93 minute VHS tape can also be purchased from: > > Antiquary Video > 8381 Conaga Ave. > Conoga Park, CA 91304-2605 > Phone: 1.888.331.7788 > > This company also carries the vidoes Memphis Belle (the original), Combat > America, The Earthquakers (9th AF), Thunderbolt!, The Battle of Midway, > Target for Tonight, and The Battle of Britain. > > The price is $27.95 plus $4.50 shipping and handling. An ad ran in the > October 2000 edition of WARBIRDS International. > Kevin M. Pearson, Secretary > Missouri Chapter/St. Louis Wing > Eighth Air Force Historical Society > 2514 W. Woodland > St. Joseph, MO 64506 > USA > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:13:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:13:29 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Hi Grant! You say you are probing for answers. What answers? I am only 43, but have studied the Eighth since I was 11. I've extensively research planes, missions and men. My most grand escapade involved researching the 91st BG's mission to Halle on 16 Aug. 44, where six 324th BS Forts were lost to fighters from IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 and 301/JG3. I've found three of the six crash site in Germany, have spoken with most who are still alive from the 324th who were flying that day, and even found and interviewed three of the surviving Luftwaffe fighter pilots flying against the 324th that day. I've also been to 36 of the former *th AF heavy bomber bases, and just completed a "field guide" for visiting the old stations. If you have questions, I will tell you if I know. If I do not, I can always point you in the right direction. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:32 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Pearson, thanks. Any info you have on the subject would sincerely be appreciated. Alas, I can give you no cooberation as respects your inquiry. I too have some (many) arcane questions. I am the son of a 427th crew member, probing for answers. Best. Grant. kpearson@saintjoseph.com wrote: > How many of the vets recall being trained to release the Ball Turret in > flight? Do you remember where the large wrench was located to loosen the > bolts on the Ball? > Kevin M. Pearson > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk From kpearson@saintjoseph.com Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:19:30 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:19:30 -0500 From: kpearson@saintjoseph.com kpearson@saintjoseph.com Subject: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Lloyd: I have several manuals on the operation of the turret, one is the gunners manual on operation, the others are technical service bulletins issued in threater. I have one "white paper" on setting the turret up for training in buildings on the airfields. Quite facinating! If you want copies, send me your address. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: 303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com [mailto:303rd-talk-admin@303rdBGA.com]On Behalf Of Lloyd J H Grant Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:58 PM To: 303rd-talk@303rdBGA.com Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Ball Turret Bill, I appreciate what you said, and will be greatful for any other insights you wish to share as regards the BTG position. I am interested in the mechanics of how it worked, but I believe a long book could be written by the men, or man, who fought in this position. Thank you. Lloyd Grant. (427th son). WCarter516@aol.com wrote: > In all do respect --- > Having flown 35 in the ball in the 358th; it was no better or worse than any > other position in terms of safety altho there were a few differences from > some other positions on a 17; inside a 40 inch globe there was an oxygen > regulator, two .50caliber machine guns 800+ rounds of ammo, a computing sight > for the guns; the electro-hydraulic controls, yourself; a chest pack if you > would hook it on one side and keep your arm elevated for 5-6 hours; and > whatever else you might feel more "comfortable" with. It did get roomier as > I went from 175 to 135# in 5 months. > There were hand cranks stowed above your head, if you could maneuver yourself > into a position to use them and there were also some other hand cranks in the > waist if there was someone still there to use them and tru you could be > chopped free in a rather short time if your buddies had not all ready > departed. I hope your shoulders are broad Jack as I think that it being the > safest place is a pretty strong statement. > Bill Carter > > . > > _______________________________________________ > 303rd-Talk mailing list > 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ 303rd-Talk mailing list 303rd-Talk@303rdBGA.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk